independent judgment at all-if they were | whom, without reference to political to entertain any respect for their own de- party, he might call the conservative incisions-they would maintain their own terest of Ireland, to make a claim before opinion, and support the amount of 151. as they could be placed upon it. This, too the lowest that could safely be adopted. was proposed at a time when so much The noble Marquess had said that the apathy prevailed, and when the duty, as it House of Commons had made a great con- was called, of registering, was so much cession to their Lordships in allowing 127. neglected. He knew that there was some to be substituted for 81. as the amount at difference of opinion between himself and which a person should be rated to give some noble Lords who were extremely well him the franchise. The House of Com- acquainted with the state of Ireland, as to mons had certainly adopted the advice what would be the practical operation of given to them by Her Majesty's Govern- this part of the measure. Not thinking, ment; and it must be borne in mind that however, that the House of Commons the noble Marquess, when the Bill was in had shown any temper or disposition to their Lordships' House, finding that the concede, he could not waive his strong general feeling was, that an 81. franchise opinion that the system was an objectionwas much too low, declared his intention able one, for the sake of making a concesto vote against it. When it was about to sion to the House of Commons. If the be proposed that the franchise should be other House of Parliament had fairly and 81., the noble Marquess interposed and frankly taken the franchise which their desired that the question should not be Lordships had deemed the lowest which put, using the extraordinary expression, could safely be proposed, he thought it that if the question was as to the insertion questionable whether it would not have of 81., he should vote against an 81. fran- been desirable for their Lordships, acting chise. He (Lord Stanley) was convinced, in a spirit of mutual concession and goodtherefore, that the noble Marquess, so far will, to try, in deference to the opinion of from making any concession to the ma- the House of Commons, this new experijority against him, was satisfied in his ment of a system of compulsory registraown mind that an 81. franchise was not tion. If their Lordships, by adhering to safe, and that, in his own deliberate judg- their own views, should cause the loss of ment, he preferred a 121. franchise. The the Bill for the present Session, much as question was not between 81. and 15l., but he desired to see the question settled— between 127. and 157.; and the decision of much as he desired to see an end put to their Lordships was, as he hoped it would the repeated discussion and agitation of be again, that a 157. franchise was as low the measure-though in Ireland, he beas was safe. Perhaps it would be con- lieved, it caused but little agitation — venient if he were now to say a few words["Hear, hear!"]--he would rather enon the other Amendment relating to the counter the inconvenience which attended subject of compulsory registration. To that system there were two grave objections, and he had not heard either objection answered. In the first place, it was argued that a great number of persons, who wished to avoid altogether the turmoil of an election, and to cultivate their own land in peace and quiet, would be exposed to the solicitations of the landlord on the one hand, and of the priest on the other, from which there was only one mode of escape; and that was, by the occupier not paying his rates. Now, as an Irish landlord, he must be forgiven for saying that there was already a peculiar reluctance on the part of the occupier to the payment of his rates, and that no additional inducement was necessary. Then, again, a system of compulsory registration acted on one side only. It put the occupiers on the register, but left the freeholders, the renewal of such discussions, and the recurrence of such agitation, than give his assent to a measure which was destructive of the representative system in Ireland. He moved, therefore, that their Lordships do insist on the Amendment made by this House in page 2, line 5. The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE thought it was only by enlarging the constituency that a representation of the sense and intelligence of the country could be secured; for the destruction of the 40s. freeholders threw the 10%. householders into the hands of the agitators. The substitution of a 15l. franchise would exclude 48,000 persons from the constituency of Ireland; and as the property thus unrepresented would chiefly belong to the rural gentry, the consequence of adopting 157. as the qualification would be to throw the representation of the counties into the Orford Sheffield Winchelsea VISCOUNTS. Middleton BISHOP. hands of the shopkeepers in the country | Orkney Athol DUKES. Ranfurly Rosslyn Sinclair Newcastle Manchester MARQUESSES. Ailsa EARLS. Aylesford Seafield Sherburne Tankerville VISCOUNTS. Beresford Doneraile Hawarden Lorton BISHOPS. Carlisle Exeter BARONS. Bexley Gray Dartmouth Falmouth Middleton Donegal Lansdowne EARLS. Besborough Bathurst Grey Morley LORD STANLEY: If I could bring myself to believe that there is any-the least-likelihood that the result of another division would be that a different conclusion from that which has been just adopted would be arrived at, I most assuredly would not hesitate to advise my noble Friend to divide the House on his Amendment, for I entirely concur with him that the principle of a compulsory registration is liable to many and most serious objections. I believe that it will be found to be most dangerous and mischievous in that country where it is now about to be introduced for the first time-in Ireland; and I am certain that it would be attended with prejudicial results even in England. With these feelings I should not scruple to advise my noble Friend to press his Motion to a division, if I could bring myself to hope that the result of a division would be favourable to our common views; but, so far as I am able to collect the opinions of noble Lords present, there does not appear to be any probability that the numbers would not be pretty much the same as on the last division. On the last division, a majority of your Lordships here present in favour of insisting on your own Amendments was overborne and outbalanced by a majority of proxies, and as, on the principle that litera scripta manet, that same majority still remains to carry the Government to victory-a majority, let me observe, that cannot be influenced by any arguments, however powerful, by any appeals, however eloquent-I feel it would be only a waste of your Lordships' time if we were to proceed to a second division. If the division were to depend on the votes of noble Lords now present, we should have no apprehension of the result; but as the Government will no doubt have again recourse to the proxy system-a system most convenient in itself, and which the present Government has found more convenient than any preceding Government-I must suggest to my noble Friend that it would be a wanton waste of time to divide again. With respect to certain observations which I made some time ago on another division similarly obtained, I must take leave to remak that it is an error to represent me as having stated that it would be desirable to deprive your Lordships of the privilege of voting by proxy. I never said so; but this I did say, and I repeat it, that there never was any Government which has been so much indebted for their majorities as the present Government to that means of voting; and I do not hesi- pursue, HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuesday, August 6, 1850. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Crime and Out- 3a National Gallery (Edinburgh): Sheep and CRIME AND OUTRAGE ACT (IRELAND) Order read for esuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to be made to Motion [2nd August] The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE observed that he would not say one word to influence the noble Lord from whatever course might appear most desirable to himself. The noble Lord was at liberty to take whatever course he pleased with respect to dividing; but if they went to a division, he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) would most assuredly call for proxies, for nothing could be fairer or more legitimate. The proxy system might or might not be "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to conconvenient; but of this he was persuaded, tinue, for a time to be limited, an Act of the that there was no noble Lord in their eleventh year of Her present Majesty, for the better prevention of Crime and Outrage in cerLordships' House who would more wil-tain parts of Ireland; and which Amendment lingly have recourse to it, if it suited his was to leave out from the word That' to the end own purpose, or had more frequently re- of the Question, in order to add the words, the sorted to it, than the noble Lord opposite. distressed people of Ireland have borne unexamLORD STANLEY: I beg to say I never tions from the soil, with praiseworthy submission pled sufferings, produced by famine, and by eviccall proxies when I am in a minority of to the Laws; and it is the opinion of this House, the Lords present. that it is not just to renew and continue measures of coercion subversive of the constitutional rights redress of acknowledged grievances connected of the Irish People as British Subjects, whilst the with the Laws which regulate the relations of Landlord and Tenant, recommended to the consideration of Parliament in Her Majesty's Speech, has been neglected or postponed'—instead there The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE continued to observe that if there had ever been a question in which it was fair and legitimate to use proxies, that question was the present one. It was a question which had been before the public for three months, which had been agitated most zealously in that and the other House, and in respect of which it was perfectly well known what the Amendments intended to be proposed would be. If the noble Lord thought that he would gain a single vote by dividing, he would of course divide. The EARL of DESART said, that he should accede to the recommendation of his noble Friend, and consent to withdraw the Motion. It was with deep regret that he had to assent to the Amendments of the other House. He greatly regretted that their Lordships had ever given their assent to the principle of the Bill, believing, as he did, that the measure was uncalled for and injurious. The omission of Clauses 18 and 19, to which the Commons disagree, on Question, not insisted on: The rest of the Amendments made by this House, to which the Commons disagree, not insisted on; and the Amendments made by the Commons to the Amendments made by the Lords agreed to. House adjourned till To-morrow. VOL. CXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] of." Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.' MR. MOORE said, he must oppose the Motion, although he had originally given it his support when it was brought under their notice. Although agrarian outrages and crimes had formerly been deplorably prevalent, no one could deny that they had lately very much decreased in consequence of the improved feeling of the population. He had seen those who were the foremost to protest against the remedy, the first to hail the cure; and, above all, he had seen the bloody, and capricious, and sanguinary ebullitions of unhallowed vengeance give place to a calm and mighty protest against the injustice from which they had sprung. The most exasperated, the most perverse, even the most guilty of the people of Ireland, had acquiesced in the justice of that wise sentence which proclaimed that murder under no circumstances, under no provocations, should dare to assume the seat 2 F 66 of this Bill were three. First, his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland said, that its provisions were directed against wrongdoers only. To this proposition he gave his entire assent. But he replied, in the words of the noble Lord at the head of IIer Majesty's Government on another occasion-" This is the argument put forward by despotic Governments." Of course this Bill was intended for wrongdoers alone. The same might be said, and said truly, of the torture, the knout, and the wheel. The objects of despotic and constitutional Governments were pretty much the same-it was upon the means that they essentially differed. It was the means, and not the object, which they were then debating; and he conceived no more indisputable axiom of constitutional government than that every arbitrary enactment which was not absolutely necessary was absolutely injurious. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin said, that this was a measure of prevention; and he added the somewhat musty proverb, that Prevention was better than cure.' He was sorry to hear an hon. and learned Member of his talents and character put forward an argument so unworthy of him; for he thought the House would agree with him that, whatever necessity might occasionally exist for arbitrary measures for the purpose of repression, the enactment of such laws for the mere prevention of possible and anticipated dangers was not only unworthy of a free Government, but one of the worst and basest expedients of despotic power. As for the argument of the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government— that, because this measure had been successful in repressing outrage, they should persevere in a remedy which they had found so efficacious-it was about as reasonable as if a physician who had relieved a patient suffering from violent inflammation by copious bleeding, were still to persist in bleeding on, after the inflammation had subsided into atrophy and decline. In fact, the Government had no case. They frankly avowed it, and begged of the House to excuse the trifling deficiency. He, for one, must decline making that concession. He voted for this Bill on a former occasion, because he thought there was a full, complete, and imperative case for interference. He now voted against it in the same spirit, because there was no case, and worse than no case. of justice; and they now demanded in return that those legal murders which had hitherto obtained impunity, not in the bosom of a guilty populace, but in the dark recesses of a conniving law, should no longer be permitted to defile the land. And what was the answer to that appeal? It was this-that, no matter how blameless might be the demeanour of the people, no matter how offensive might be the conduct of the landlords, that House was determined to legislate for the landlords, and against the people. [Expressions of dissent.] Hon. Gentlemen dissented, but what was the state of the case? What was the great social scandal of Ireland at the present day, which affrighted the mind of every passing traveller, and filled the whole land with wailing and desolation? Was it the assassination of the rich by the hands of the poor? Was it the landlord or the agent slain on the highway by the arm of the vindictive peasant? They heard of none of these things, but, on the other hand, smouldering hamlets and roofless villages; evicted families cowering round their desolated hearths; others, hunted from that last retreat, dying by the wayside; children, with scarce a vestige of humanity, crowded in festering throngs within the walls of the poorhouse, or shivering in cold, and hunger, and nakedness in the rain outside-all, in fact, that met the eye from end of the country to the other, denoted a ruthless and exterminating war against a meek, forbearing, and unresisting peasantry, such as eye had never seen, nor ear heard, in the whole history of human wrong and human endurance. And was it to be credited that, as a remedy for such a state of things as this, they were now called upon to forge fresh fetters for unresisting poverty, fresh weapons for overbearing power, measures of prevention lest the hapless worm should turn, measures of enforcement lest the armed heel should not tread sufficiently heavy or sufficiently sure? He thought that amidst the scenes that were enacted in Ireland, to intrude three such measures as were now in progress through the House upon the gloomy stage, to enforce the strong and restrain the feeble, where strength was already rampant, and feebleness had almost sunk into collapse, was a scandal upon our legislation, and almost justified the calumnious imputation which had been alleged against our laws-that they were enacted against the many "by and for a particular The arguments alleged in support few." COLONEL RAWDON could not refuse to |