of the year to postpone any subject likely to give rise to much discussion to an early period of the next Session. It was most painful for him to postpone the consideration of the subject, but he would then give notice that at an early period of the next Session he would bring the whole question under the notice of the House, and press for a division upon it. He merely wished, on the present occasion, to move for a return showing how much of the 38,000l. saved from the Civil List was saved in the departments of the Privy Purse, and in the offices of the Steward, the Chamberlain, and the Master of the Horse. Then the Order of the Day for moving an humble Address to Her Majesty, for the Amount of the Savings in the Civil List Revenues since the beginning of 1838; | distinguishing the Classes and the Years; and for the Lords to be Summoned; read, and discharged. Then it was moved"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, for a Return of how much of the 38,000l. and upwards, Savings on the Civil List for the Year ending 5th April, 1850, arises from the Salaries, Pensions, and Allowances." The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, that his noble and learned Friend had given notice of a Motion to which he had certainly felt that the very strongest objection should be made; and he was bound to state that even the modification of that Motion which had been proposed, was, in his opinion, open to very grave objections, considering the situation in which that House stood with respect to the Crown. With respect to the savings of which the noble and learned Lord spoke, he was informed that the view of his noble and learned Friend was founded on mistake, and that the money was merely so much money not issued. He must, however, fairly state to his noble and learned Friend his invincible repugnance to the production of the smallest, the most minute, or the most trifling account in the Civil List, founded as that Civil List was upon a solemn engagement and contract between the Crown on the one hand, and Parliament on the other. So long as that contract subsisted, he should deem it his duty to object to the production of any accounts connected in any way with that Civil List. Well, knowing that his noble and learned Friend would disclaim any interference with that contract, yet knowing at the same time-what his noble and learned Friend must be well acquainted with the temper of these times, and feeling sure that if Parliament began by asking for information, that information, if granted, might be followed up in a spirit far different from that which actuated his noble and learned Friend, he would oppose himself to any concession from which it might be argued that the whole question of the settlement of the Civil List might be reviewed, for the sake of showing that some paltry gain might accrue to the publie in the distribution of the expenses of the Crown, leaving altogether out of sight a question of the greatest importance, namely, the independence of the administration of that fund, which the deliberations of Parliament had assigned to the Sovereign for the maintenance of that royal rank and dignity which became the head of the State; but which would cease to be dignity, if the administration of that fund were liable every year, and on every occasion, to be sifted and examined. He begged of the House to consider that the establishment of a Civil List at the commencement of each reign had become, by usage, something like constitutional law; but, at all events, the arrangement had been sanctioned by long usage, Parliament having obtained from the Crown the revenues of the Crown, and having given in exchange a certain fixed sum to maintain its dignity. This was a practice which had obtained for the reigns of three or four successive Sovereigns, and the only alteration which had been made in the original arrangement was one which presented a still greater bar to the inquiry for which his noble and learned Friend had asked, inasmuch as those parts of the Civil List which peculiarly appertained to the honour and dignity of the Crown were separated from the other portions of it, which were left subject to the review of Parliament. The 9th clause of the Act by which the Civil List was regulated expressly provided that savings in particular classes of the Civil List should be applicable to the wants of others. The advent of another Sovereign, the necessity for more horses, or a larger expenditure in the kitchen one year than another, would make a difference in the different classes, and the savings in one department were transferred to departments to which those savings had not been specifically appropriated. Parliament had nothing whatever to do with the subject. He agreed entirely, that if at any timethough fortunately such a thing was not likely to occur during the present reign— the Crown were to come to Parliament for assistance to the Civil List, Parliament, tling the Civil List of the last Sovereign; before granting such assistance, would but he perfectly recollected Earl Spencer, have a right to be informed whether there when Chancellor of the Exchequer, declarhad been any undue expenditure in the dif- ing that no inquiry could be made into the ferent classes. But to the honour of the expenditure of these classes, and that such Crown he might justly say, that though inquiry was inconsistent with the dignity during the half century preceding the pre- and honour of the Crown. That statement sent reign no less than nine applications was in precise conformity with the princihad been made for assistance to the Civil ple that there should be no inquiry. He List, since the present Sovereign had as- concurred in all that had been stated of cended the throne, now upwards of thirteen the personal generosity of the Sovereign. years, no such application had been made, Having been cognisant of the formation of and he was confident that no prospect ex- the Civil List during the last two reigns, isted of such an application ever being he had objected that sufficient provision made. The greatest inconvenience would was not made for the demands on the be felt, and indeed the greatest inde- bounty of the Crown. He had occasion to corum would be manifested-as much as if know with what generosity Her Majesty the affairs of any private gentleman were had acted in the case of those who had inquired into-if they were to examine been bereaved through misfortunes in war; in that House, or in the other House and he could not avoid mentioning that cirof Parliament, or out of doors, whether cumstance, having on the occasions he had there had been a horse too much kept in mentioned, in voting the Civil List, objectthis department, or a dinner too much or ed that sufficient provision was not made too little given in that department, the real for such benevolent purposes. question being whether the honour and LORD MONTEAGLE said, that as an dignity of the Crown had been generally individual employed under Lord Spencer, maintained. He would not ask their Lord- in the preparation of the Civil List of ships whether this object had been at- King William IV., and also as having acttained in the present reign. He believed ed as Chancellor of the Exchequer in preit was admitted on all hands that the ex- paring the Civil List of Her present Mapenditure of the Civil List had been regu- jesty, he trusted that their Lordships would lated in accordance with the spirit of the feel that he was only discharging a duty country, with the honour and dignity of which he owed to the House in making a the Crown, and with a liberal distribution few observations. He regretted that the Moof public and private charity. Beyond that tion should have been made, and also that the he did not know that the public could de- questions and conversation which had presire anything; and he would put it to his ceded it should have taken place, because noble and learned Friend whether his Mo- it would go forth with all the sanction that tion could answer any other purpose than could be given to it by the high authority that of satisfying mere curiosity? On of his noble and learned Friend. A prethese grounds he must oppose the Motion cedent of greater danger to the constituof his noble and learned Friend. tion of this country, and one more foreign to previous precedents in the history of England, never could take place, than the opening of this question. He did not mean to say that Parliament had not ever been called on to review the Civil List, but that was when there were exceedings and debts. The public ought not to be misled by the The DUKE of WELLINGTON observed, notion that the land revenues of the Crown that his noble and learned Friend seemed were all that was surrendered in exchange to have overlooked the enactment which for a Civil List. The Crown surrendered provided that none of those classes of the its hereditary revenues as well; and it had Civil List which were allotted to the dig- been often argued that the amount surrennity and sustentation of the Crown could dered by the Crown was infinitely greater be made the subject of inquiry in regard than the amount given by Parliament. Up to the transfer of means from one to ano-to the reign of George IV., the sums at ther. He did not know whether the same statement was made in settling the Civil List of Her Majesty as was made in set LORD BROUGHAM explained, that in framing his Motion he had desired to exclude all indecorous inquiry. He merely wished to know whether the same number of offices for which Parliament had voted the money was kept up with the same amount of pay. the disposal of the Sovereign far exceeded the amount provided for by the present Civil List. The whole of the droits of the Admiralty, the revenues of Hanover, and the four-and-a-half per cent duties were in the possession of the Crown. An alteration was made by the Government of the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington). There was then tendered a large surrender of the hereditary revenues of the Crown. The Committee, however, of 1831, to whom this matter was referred, confined themselves in their inquiries into the second class-to the salaries of the Officers of State, not thinking it consistent with the respect due to His Majesty to scrutinise the details of his domestic household. He would now proceed to the Civil List of Her present Majesty. In Her Majesty's communication to Parliament in 1837, She said "Desirous that the expenditure in this and in every other department of the Government should be kept within due limits, I feel confident that you will gladly make adequate provision for the support of the honour and dignity of the Crown. Their Lordships, however, must bear in mind that Her Majesty was placed in a different position from any of Her predecessors in respect of revenue. The revenues of Hanover had ceased to be the possession of the Crown; no private fortune had been bequeathed to Her, and the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall (which George IV. enjoyed during the whole of his reign), were only Her's until the birth of a Prince of Wales. Upon that occasion he (Lord Monteagle), as the organ of the Government, had made use of the following observations :— Majesty's accession was binding as a bargain; and yet he proposed to inquire into it, to examine witnesses, and to put all sorts of questions to them. This was blowing hot and cold. If the settlement of the Civil List was really a bargain between the Crown and the people, no one was entitled to ask any questions about it. If the settlement was not such a bargain, let the noble and learned Lord say so at once, and propose that it should be reconsidered. This was the first time it had ever been proposed to inquire into the expenditure of the Civil List when the Crown was not in debt, and no application was made to Parliament for an additional grant to the Sovereign. Was it even rumoured that the Crown was in debt? Their Lordships would bear in mind that the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall had now passed away from the Crown, and that Her Majesty had a smaller Civil List than She had in 1837. Having had the honour to serve under two successive Sovereigns, he was happy to state that no persons ever felt greater alarm at the idea of incurring debt, or a firmer determination to live independently within the income assigned to them, than the late King and Her present Majesty. When his late Majesty was about to go into his new palace, he expressed to him (Lord Monteagle) his fear lest he might be obliged to incur additional expenditure, saying "I never asked Parliament to pay a single debt for me, and, so help me God! I never will." Her present Majesty was equally cautious of incurring "We wish to make such arrangements as will debt, and yet it could not be imputed to carry us through this reign, which we hope may Her that She was deficient in acts of be as long as happy, without appeals to Parlia- generosity or charity. Her present Mament, contractions of debts, and those circumstances which have led in former times to so much jesty had also been obliged to incur extrajealousy and suspicion on the part of the people, ordinary expenses by Her progresses to and have not been without prejudicial effects to Ireland and Scotland; but, nevertheless, royalty. But as we hope the reign to be long, it She had avoided making any application behoves us to consider it with care, and to weigh to Parliament for an additional grant. The well the steps we take, because I admit that when noble Lord then contended that Parliament the step is taken, I shall be ready to plead it in bar of any proposal to reconsider the Civil List, had no right to inquire into particular savunless the Crown were placed in a position to re-ings that might be effected in the expendiquire it." That was the expression of the opinion of Lord Melbourne's Cabinet. Parliament then settled Her Majesty's Civil List at a less amount than that enjoyed by Her predecessors; and upon that occasion the noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) himself declared that the arrangement ought not to be revised by Parliament unless the Crown applied for additional sums. Even now the noble and learned Lord admitted that the settlement made at Her ture of the Civil List, because it was provided by Act of Parliament that all such savings should belong to the Crown, and concluded by apologising for having said so much. LORD BROUGHAM would have excused his noble Friend for saying ten times as much, if what he had said had only been accurate. His noble Friend had, however, informed the House that he was once a Chancellor of the Exchequer, and had bragged of having framed the Civil List, and of having been an under-workman in this occasion, he should feel, if possible, that transaction, but had in his address a still greater pleasure in saying, God formade blunders which he (Lord Brougham), bid that the country or the Crown should in his ignorance-for he was never either a Chancellor of the Exchequer or a Secretary to the Treasury, and was, at the time the noble Lord had referred to, only one of his masters-would not have commited. The noble Lord had said that the money voted by Parliament was voted for the Civil List, and not for the items of which it was composed. He had heard of metaphysicians, Jesuits, refiners, over-refiners, hair-splitters, wire-drawers, and wire-drawn arguments, but he certainly had never before heard a more wire-drawn, evanescent, subtle distinction than that drawn by the noble Lord. Parliament voted a certain sum of money for supporting the dignity of the Crown, upon estimates which were laid before it, containing the most minute details of all the expenses, salaries, and allowances of all the officers, down to the grooms, postilions, coachmen, footmen, running-footmen, servants in livery and servants out of livery, as well as maids of honour, bedchamber women, Lord Chamberlain, Lord Steward, and Master of the Horse; all these items were fully set out, and although the House did not vote separate sums for each of those individuals, male and female, still the whole was summed up, and it was upon the faith of those estimates that the total amount was voted. His noble Friend had argued as though the sum total were unconnected with the details of the sum; he might as well have argued that because 2 and 4 are 6, and 4 are 10, and 2 are 12, that therefore the number 12 had nothing to do with the 2's which went to make up the number. His noble Friend had "jumped about and turned about" with that singular evolution, agility, and nimbleness which would have done honour to the representative upon any stage of "Jim Crow," and boldly declared that none of those twos, or fours, or sixes, went to make up the total of twelve. It was far from his (Lord Brougham's) wish to curtail anything of the dignity of the Crown. God forbid that such a national calamity should ever occur as that of the loss of the services of a Lord Chamberlain!-God forbid that either the country or the Crown should ever be deprived of the services of a Lord Steward!and God forbid also that they should ever be deprived of the services of the Master of the Horse! and if the noble Lord who filled that important post were present on for an instant lose the services of that illustrious trio! He hoped that the Crown would long maintain that accession of dignity which their valuable and important services conferred upon it. There was nothing in his Motion which could for a moment lead to the supposition that the country or the Crown would ever be deprived of the services of the Lord Chamberlain, be bereaved of the valuable assistance of a Lord Steward, or that they should ever have occasion to go forlorn for the want of a Master of the Horse. His noble Friend had said that the object of the Motion was merely the gratification of an idle curiosity. It was no such thing. He wished to be satisfied that there had been no diminution in the salaries, and that the same persons were still employed, and the same salaries still given to them as entered in the estimates upon which the vote for the Civil List was granted. If there was to be no check of this kind, his noble Friend opposite (the Marquess of Westminster) might, perhaps, be called upon, for instance, to serve without any salary at all, and then-or, if he did not so choose to serve without his salary-let their Lordships consider the alternativethat office might be laid down altogether, contrary to the estimates, upon the faith of which the vote had been granted. But he had been told that this was a question of extreme delicacy, and one which ought not to be asked. His esteemed Whig friends had certainly changed very greatly since he had the pleasure of seeing them in the House of Commons; for in that House he had over and over again moved for returns connected with the revenues of the Crown, and had always upon those occasions received their faithful and valuable support. He had at length, after great difficulty, succeeded in extorting and extracting from Lord Liverpool an account of the droits of the Admiralty, which then formed part of the revenues of the Crown. He was now told, however, that it was indelicate, that he ought to let well alone, and wait for such an inquiry until the Sovereign was in debt; that the stream of monarchy was flowing smoothly, unshaken, and unruffled, and that if they erected their dam, or made their dike before the tempest came on, some great catastrophe would take place. This was nearly the same language which had been held on the LORD MONTEAGLE said, the droits of the Admiralty went to the credit of the public. previous occasions to which he had refer- | the noble Earl) to regulate matters conred. But, notwithstanding these opinions, nected with the mercantile marine of the upwards of 3,000,000l. of the revenue de- country. In the first place, it gave to the rived from the Admiralty droits were given Board of Trade the power of superintending up by Parliament just before the battle of the carrying out of those regulations; and, Trafalgar, and returns were now constantly to enable that to be done, it gave to the laid before the House respecting the duchy board the power of appointing, as superinof Cornwall, the hereditary revenues of tendents, persons who had practical inforScotland, and other sources of revenue of mation on the subject. It had reference, the Crown. He commenced his Motions also, to that point which had been made a on these subjects in 1812; and, after Lord matter of accusation against the captains Castlereagh's death, he at length extorted and mates of the merchant ships, that if from Lord Liverpool's Government a de- they had not actually deteriorated, they tailed statement of the appropriation of the had certainly not improved, in scientific droits of the Admiralty. attainments, nor in their general or moral conduct. The Bill, therefore, enabled the Board of Trade to appoint examining officers to examine all those who were candidates for those situations. Another object of the Bill was to insure greater discipline on board, and, as a proof of the necessity of such a provision, he referred to an instance that occurred some time ago, in which the captain of a vessel was put into irons by the crew; but, on arriving in port, as the law stood, no punishment could be awarded against him for his misconduct. It was as much for the interest of the seamen themselves as for the service in general that strict provisions should be made for maintaining good conduct on board. He would not, however, detain the House longer, as he intended to accede to the proposition of his noble Friend (Lord Stanley), that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. LORD BROUGHAM: Yes, that was the result of his Motions, which all his Whig friends supported. LORD MONTEAGLE begged to assure his noble and learned Friend that he was not mistaken in what he had previously stated. When the Civil List was settled, it was distinctly provided that all savings which might be made in salaries, other than those of the great officers of State, should go to the Crown. When his noble and learned Friend made his Motion about the droits of the Admiralty, the Crown was in debt. LORD BROUGHAM said, his Motions had no reference whatever to the debts of the Crown. The MARQUESS of BREADALBANE stated, that at the time of the settlement of the Civil List it was provided that no new appointment should be made, nor any alteration in the salaries of the officers should take place without the sanction of the Lords of the Treasury. Many of the expenses which were formerly borne by Parliament were defrayed by Her Majesty out of the Civil List; and the public ought to know that Her Majesty voluntarily gave up 12,000l. of her revenue for income tax for the good of the country. The manner in which the noble and learned Lord had brought forward his Motion, had been, in his opinion, deserving of the censure of that House and of the country; and he believed that people out of doors would entertain the same opinion on the subject. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. MERCANTILE MARINE (No. 2) BILL. EARL GRANVILLE, in proposing the Second Reading of this Bill, briefly explained its provisions. It was intended, (said EARL WALDEGRAVE said, that as the Bill was to go to a Select Committee he would not oppose the second reading. LORD COLCHESTER approved of the provisions of the Bill respecting the quali fications of masters and mates, but regretted that they were confined to foreign-going vessels. Bill read 2a, and referred to a Select Committee. House adjourned till To-morrow. -mm⌁ HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, August 2, 1850. 2a Customs; Marlborough House; Inspection |