tained to the Bill was, that it gave a power few hundred persons in any part of our to change the boundaries of the colony possessions, but a bishop was to be apafter six months' notice. How was a pointed and sent out. In this case, howcolony which it was intended to divide, to ever, he hoped the ecclesiastical establishobject within six months, when four months ments would not be increased as the coloat least would expire before the notice could nies increased, so that there might be no reach this country, so that eight months established churches there, similar in prowas necessary for the news to return? He portion to the Established Church of the further objected to the Bill, because it mother country. The hon. Member for gave power to the Governor to alter sala- Berwickshire and the "happy family" of ries of his own accord; so that if a Judge would-be colonial legislators, contended for happened to give a decision adverse to the a constitution similar to that of the British wishes of the Governor, he would be liable Government; and the right hon. Gentleman to be mulcted for it in the shape of a re- the Member for the University of Oxford duction of salary. He put it to the House had proposed, if not a peerage, certainly a whether such a power as this was consti- life peerage, with some important privitutional, or at all in unison with the usual leges, for the bishops. He was very glad mode of dealing with the Australian or any that not a tittle of encouragement was other colonies. The independence of the given in the Bill to these views of the right Judges would undoubtedly be destroyed if hon. Gentleman. With regard to the exit were suffered to exist. Such were some istence of two chambers, for which the hon. of the objections he felt to the passing of Member for Berwickshire contended, his the measure-a measure which he could (Sir De L. Evans') own opinion was in fanot allow to proceed without calling atten- vour of it theoretically; and when the protion to the fact, that if the Government position was made, he voted for it on genewere right in the first place in declaring ral rather than on special grounds. But they would act in conformity with the as he continued to hear the question diswishes of the colonies, they were certainly cussed, and to read the documents which wrong in coming to the opposite conclusion, came from the colonies, he doubted the of acting adversely to their wishes. If propriety of that vote. He doubted whethey were right in determining to give the ther, at present, there were elements for colonies a constitution similar to the British another chamber; and, therefore, when constitution, they were clearly wrong in the question was debated at a subsequent giving them a government different to the period, he abstained from voting. Taken British constitution. In conclusion, he altogether, the Bill was a fair and liberal could not assent to a Bill containing pro- measure. Not only was it beneficial to visions adverse to the feelings of the colo- the colonies in many respects, but it nies, and not calculated to cement those contained a direct invitation to them to bonds of attachment which ought always propose whatever alterations or modificato exist between them and the mother tions in their form of government they might country. deem proper. It might be said they had not the power to carry such alterations or modifications into effect, which they might have had. He admitted that. He wished further that there had been less of nomineeship. One-third was perhaps too much for the Government to possess; but he did not find that the colonists were prepared, at present, to alter the proportion. On the whole he ventured to think that the Government had acted rightly in not prematurely disposing of the question, but in leaving the colonies themselves to consider any future modifications and alterations in their constitution. SIR DE L. EVANS could not agree with the hon. Member in his observations respecting the land fund, for his arguments to induce the Government to forego their claim to its control were utterly untenable. The mother country was at great expense in various ways upon account of the colonies, and it was utterly impossible for her to surrender all claim to the whole territory to the present inhabitants. Such a policy would not be acting justly towards future settlers. He approved of the Bill as a whole, but he felt some objection to several parts of it. He was opposed, for instance, to the appointment of a Church Establishment in the colonies; and he thought they would go on very well in religion as well as morals without the presence of an episcopate. At present he hardly ever heard of the settlement of a MR. V. SMITH was not, like the hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire, at a loss to form an opinion whether the Government intended to persevere or not with the Bill this Session. In the present state of the House they could carry almost anything; and he could not doubt that they intended to carry this Bill; but, before proceeding any further, they ought to disclose their views as to which of the Lords' Amendments they intended to reject, and which to adopt. The Bill was one of very great importance. [Lord J. RUSSELL: The question now is, whether the Amendments shall be considered.] The hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire, and his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Westminster, however, had scarcely alluded to the Amendments made in it by the other House. For his own part, he considered the majority of them rather improvements; though some of them completely diverged from the principles adopted by the House, and laid down by Her Majesty's Ministers. The first important Amendment was a very large omission. All the clauses by which a Federative Assembly was proposed to be established had been struck out. To this omission he had no objection. The fact of their omission, however, showed the difficulty of legislating for the Australian colonies; for although they had been carried in that House by a majority of six to one, the House of Lords cut them out; and at present the Government had not stated whether they intended to insist upon them or not. In striking them out, then, he feared they were exhibiting to the colonies a spectacle of how little attention was paid to the subject which interested them. The next Amendment introduced by the Lords was one which he had vainly attempted to press upon the House. It was the introduction of something like a franchise to what was called the squatting interest; and the Lords' Amendment in this respect had substantially carried his proposition into effect. The next alterations made by the Lords were much more important, and they were objectionable because they would restrict the functions of colonial legislation, and continue powers to the Colonial Office which ought to be abandoned without delay. Another Amendment of the Lords was the omission of certain words in the sixth page of the Bill, enabling the Colonial Legislature to extend the franchise, without leaving an equal power in the 32nd clause. They had also introduced a new clause the 35th-stating what it was lawful for the Colonial Legislature to do; but there was nothing respecting the extension of the franchise in that clause; which led him to suppose that there would le considerable trouble on this point in the future. [Mr. HAWES: The 32nd clause settled that point.] The important alteration, however, in his opinion, was the omission of certain words in the 32nd clause, which, in his view of the case, went to limit the powers of the council to vary the power of the colonial constitution. This ought to be restored to the Bill for the sake of keeping faith with the colonies. As this was the last opportunity he should have of speaking on this Bill, he could not but express his regret that it had not been made more liberal and extensive. He should move that they disagree with the Lords' Amendments relative to the constitution of the Legislative Councils. Motion made, and Question put "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the Amendment in p. 21, line 14, which Amendment is, after the word 'Members,' to insert the words and generally to vary in any manner not hereinbefore authorised, the constitution of such Legislative Councils respectively."" LORD J. RUSSELL: I should have stated, Sir, in the first instance, what is the purport of the Lords' Amendments, and what the Government propose to do upon them, if the hon. Member for Berwickshire had waited until we came to the first of them. But I must add, in answer to an observation from my right hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, that some days ago, in reply to a question, I stated that the Government would propose to agree to the Amendments made by the Lords, so that the House is not ignorant of the course we proposed to take. Like my right hon. Friend, I think it far more convenient to deal with these Amendments as they are, than to go into other considerrations as to the views of the Government in the early part of the Session, or the debates which took place upon those views. I admit that the greatest change made in the Bill by the Lords is the omission of the clauses with regard to the federative assembly. It will be recollected that my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and other Members of the Government, repeatedly stated that they thought it desirable to show that we were willing to allow the colonies to meet together for legislative purposes, by a body legally constituted for that purpose, but that we did not expect that for some years any such power would be called into action. When the clauses proposed for that purpose came under consideration, it was stated in this House that the smaller colonies would be overpowered by the great influence of the colony which was the most to have a vote in the election of Members populous and the most powerful, namely, of the Legislature. With this proposal New South Wales. We endeavoured to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for meet that objection by giving greater Nottingham naturally concurs, because he power to each separate colony, and by originally suggested it in this Housc. But diminishing the proportion which the Mem- then there was another proposal which I bers would bear to the population of each admit to be one of very great importance. colony in the federative assembly. How We stated in this House that one of the ever, upon further discussion of this ques- main objects of this Bill was to give the tion, my noble Friend was of opinion that, legislatures in the colonies greater power as the colonies stand, that provision might to alter their own constitution than they give means to the most powerful and the now enjoy. I say this was one of the main most populous colony to take funds, derived benefits of the Bill; but I consider that one from all the colonies, for purposes which of the main objects of the Bill was to give would be advantageous more especially to to several colonies which had no reprethe colony which was the most powerful sentative institutions at all, representative of the whole. He was of opinion this de- institutions similar to those of New South fect was such, that when the question was Wales. At the present moment those coargued he was not prepared with any pro- lonies are governed entirely under the auvision that would have completely obviated thority of the Crown by persons nominated the inconvenience. Seeing, then, that it by the Crown; but by this Bill we introwas a part of the measure which was not duce into those colonies-four colonies I expected to come into immediate operation, think-in which they have been hitherto he thought it better to omit the clauses unknown, representative institutions. That altogether, rather than insist upon their advantage remains in the Bill so far unbeing carried with this acknowledged and touched by the Amendments of the Lords. avowed defect. I think my noble Friend With regard to the next question, the took an expedient course upon that occa- House will remember there were very sion. I think, at the same time, we have great discussions whether or not we should shown to the House of Commons that we constitute two chambers, or whether we should be quite willing, if a Federative As- should be contented at present to leave sembly should be thought generally advan- the constitution of the colonies as fixed by tageous to the colonies, to entertain that the Act of 1842, introduced by Lord Stanquestion; that we have no insuperable ob- ley, or whether we should give them power jections to it; and that although we have to make alterations in their constitutions. not been able to frame clauses entirely This House was of opinion the last course satisfactory at the present time, if in fu- was the most desirable-that, however deture they are asked for by the colonies, we sirable two chambers might be, in our preshould endeavour to frame some provisions sent state of information we are not justiwhich would guard the smaller colonies, fied in introducing two chambers without and at the same time provide for the re- further information, and without more quirements of the greater. We propose, knowledge of the feelings and wishes of therefore, to agree to this Amendment of the colonies. As the Bill at present stands, the Lords, and omit these clauses-clauses with regard to several of the subjects which which were conceived to be useful and were intended to be matters of legislation valuable for future operations, but which in the colonies, though some alterations were not part of the advantages to be ob- have been made, the measure stands in tained by this Bill. Another point in the fact and substance as it was sent to the Amendments made by the Lords is the House of Lords. The House of Lords admission of certain classes of voters, have, as the hon. Member for Berknown under the denomination of "squat-wickshire says, reduced by one-half he ters "-persons who in general are very wealthy. Whether the provision to this effect has been framed in such a manner as to meet assent in, and to give satisfaction to, the colonies, I am certainly not able to say; but I think it is expedient to show that we are willing to concur in provisions which shall enable these persons -persons of property and respectability amount of the franchise; but they have likewise left to the colonies the power of altering the qualification of the electors and the elected. They have therefore a power left of altering the constituent body They have likewise left to the colonies the power of dividing the legislative body into two chambers, and of appointing the mode in which those two chambers shall be con these reasons I propose that this House agree to the Lords' Amendments. MR. GLADSTONE said, he should endeavour to follow the example of the noble Lord at the head of the Government by confining his attention to the Lords' Amendments upon this measure; but he must, in a single sentence, allude to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster, because a great part of it had been occupied with references to himself. He would not say that the hon. and stituted. But there is a change which it | legislature to be solely elective. I thereappears to have been contemplated might fore concur in the general policy of the be proposed by the Legislative Councils; Amendments made in this Bill by the for the words "the power to vary in any Lords. I consider the Bill will be a great manner the constitution of the colonies benefit to the Australian colonies; and I are excluded by the alterations that have do not think the observations of the hon. been made in the Bill. I do not think it Member for Berwickshire, although they would, under this alteration, be in th show he has paid great attention to the power of the Legislative Council to pass an subject, will tend to diminish the satisfacAct by which the whole body of the single tion with which a Bill of this kind, in the chamber should be elected, and no one shape of an Act of Parliament, will be remember of it be nominated by the Crown.ceived in our Australian possessions. For I do not think it would be in their power to alter the present propositions, unless some further legislation by the Imperial Parliament took place. They may, however, alter the qualifications of electors; and although they may divide the present Legislative Council into two chambers, they would not have the power of saying that the nominees of the Crown-whether official or non-official-should be altogether excluded. Upon that subject I should have been disposed to say, if such an alteration had been proposed by the Legisla-gallant Member's speech had been mistive Council in New South Wales, that, although it was a matter for their discussion and deliberation, I felt very great objections to such an alteration. I should have doubted whether it would be expedient in the Crown to give any assent to such a proposition; I therefore feel the less objection to the alteration that has been proposed; the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for the University of Oxford, being, I think, in favour of the two chambers, wishing at the same time there should be in the second chamber, not nomination entirely nor election entirely, but a mixed body, composed partly of elected members and partly of members nominated by the Crown under certain conditions and limitations. But I imagine, though it would be competent according to the words of the 32nd clause for the Legislative Council to propose that it should hereafter be divided into two bodies, and that they would divide the future legislature of New South Wales, or any of the other colonies, they are restricted only in the respect I have mentioned. Though this is a very considerable alteration in the Bill, I am not disposed to refuse my concurrence in the Amendment as made by the Lords. I certainly think there were defects in leaving the whole subject to the Legislative Council; but if there is anything on which we ought to place a restriction, I think it is on the power of altering the Legislative Council into the only legislative body, that placed; but the hon. and gallant Gentleman had been so occupied with the cares and labours of the Session that he had not had time to peruse either one of the prints of the Bill, or any of the Amendments placed upon the Votes, or to attend to one of the debates, or, lastly, to read any of the Amendments introduced during those debates. With regard to the personal allusions the hon. and gallant Gentleman had made, and the description he had given of various proposals which he alleged he (Mr. Gladstone) had made, and various other proposals which he had not made, instead of going through the series of statements made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman one by one, he begged him, wherever he had set down an affirmative, to make it a negative, and wherever he had mentioned a negative, to make it an affirmative, for then his statements would be as nearly correct as possible. There were three Amendments made by the Lords upon which he thought it necessary to make a few remarks. With regard to the two first, the omission of the federative clauses, and the alteration of the franchise in New South Wales, he entirely agreed with the noble Lord. It was quite plain, although the federative clauses formed an important portion of the Bill sent out to Australia in 1849, they did not form an acceptable portion. So far, therefore, as the colonies were concerned, the House was free to part with them without involv ing themselves in embarrassment; whilst, were two arguments by which the Bill had so far as concerned the merits, however been justified. The question of abstract desirable a general assembly of the colo- excellence had been thrown overboard. nies might be in given circumstances of The House had been told, not without juxtaposition and community of interest, truth, that the most important question he thought, with the noble Lord, though for Parliament to consider was not in all for more permanent reasons, these clauses cases what was abstractedly best, but that were out of place. As to the franchise, it which was best suited to the particular would not become him to cavil at the community, as proved and indicated by the amendments made in this respect, because expressed wishes of that community. So he had strenuously urged that a Bill giving it had been said in this case. The Bill a permanent constitution to the Australian had been sent out to the colonies, and it colonies ought to contain just such pro- had received the approval of the colonial visions. But he had been much struck by community; but then the colonial comwhat had fallen from the noble Lord; for munity had power to alter it in any sense the noble Lord had admitted that they had they thought fit. That argument was in a great degree been legislating in the now cut away. The power of altering the dark. Whilst they had been altering the constitution, and of affecting the balance franchise upon principles which were ge- of power as fixed by the Bill between the nerally sound, the noble Lord confessed Crown and the popular element, was altothey had been doing so without adequate gether taken away. True, the power was information. This circumstance led him left of constituting a double chamber; but to doubt whether they might not have lost that was by far the most unlikely power to time, and omitted opportunities, which be used, for the Government had forgotwould have enabled them to permanently ten, throughout all these discussions, that, legislate in a satisfactory manner; and it of all the changes a single chamber was confirmed his impression that Parliament likely to make, the last would be that of had not before it means of information to resolving itself into a double chamber, beenable it to arrive at satisfactory conclu- cause it would cut directly at the personal sions. The Bill before the House was vanity and the sense of self-importance and not, in his mind, satisfactory in its prin- pride of the members. Unless he was ciple. He admitted the perfect purity of much mistaken, what had recently occurthe noble Lord's intentions, and that, in red in Canada was a case in point. various respects, the measure conferred cording to the accounts in the public jourmaterial boons upon the colonies. No nals, the Canadian Assembly had had bedoubt it was a matter of crying necessity fore them a question whether they should that the separation of Port Philip from address the Crown to pray that Parliament New South Wales should be accomplish- should pass an Act for giving an elective ed; no doubt it was a great advantage, constitution. The Legislative Council rethough, perhaps, not a matter of crying fused to pass the Motion: they preferred necessity, that during the present year the nominated to the elected council. representative institutions should be con- Why? Because they knew perfectly well ferred upon South Australia and Van Die- that a nominated council was a plaything men's Land. But if they were reduced and a delusion; that it had been found to the dilemma of either taking an imper- necessary, upon great changes of opinion, fect and a bad measure this year, or of to swamp the council; that if there should incurring the risks of postponement, the be another change it would be swamped House would have done wisely to take the again; and that, by a series of successive alternative of postponement, for the sake of securing a satisfactory measure. The point upon which the measure was unsatisfactory to his mind was brought out in the third Amendment of the Lords that which took away from the legislative councils the power to alter the proportions between the nominated and the elected members in the composition of those councils. That Amendment went to the very root of all the dissent upon the Bill, and upon the principles involved in it. There Ac swampings, it would gain in numbers more |