On the Vote of whether there was to be a proportionate reduction in the expense of the Court of Chancery? SIR W. SOMERVILLE said, he believed the operation of the Incumbered Estates Act, instead of diminishing had materially increased the business of the Court of Chancery. COLONEL SIBTHORP wished to be informed how long this Incumbered Estates Court was likely to last. SIR W. SOMERVILLE: Three years, according to the provisions of the Act. COLONEL SIBTHORP: Then, Sir, I beg leave to move that this Vote be disallowed. Vote agreed to; as was (13.) 15,000l., Works of Navigation connected with Drainage (Ireland). (14.) 14,765l., Ambassador's House at Constantinople. MR. HUME said, he was surprised to see this vote, as there was a Committee then sitting which had under their consideration the salaries of the diplomatic corps. He would suggest a postponement of this vote till the Committee had made their report. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that in any case there must be a residence for the Minister at Constantinople. MR. HUME: But the house for a man with 6,000l. a year should not be so expensive as that for a man having 12,000l. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, that it was impossible to hire a house at Constantinople fit for a European to live in; and as it was necessary to build a house, it was a matter of economy that it should be made of materials that would not burn. MR. HENLEY asked what the total expenditure would be? VISCOUNT PALMERSTON regretted to say, that it would be much more than was at first expected; for whilst the building of it was going on one portion of it caught fire. MR. HENLEY said, that the present vote made the total expenditure 30,000l., and he wished to know if any more money was to be asked for? VISCOUNT PALMERSTON believed the present vote would complete the building. Vote agreed to; as were also (15.) 1,000l., Militia and Volunteers, Canada. (16.) 3,000l., Harbour of Lybster, on the east coast of Scotland. (17.) 18,100 for Erecting and Maintaining Lighthouses on Sable Island, MR. HUME said, he did not rise to object to the employment of money for useful purposes. But he regretted that the Government did not take this department under their own control, instead of leaving it to be managed by a self-elected company, who expended what they pleased, and levied what they pleased. He regretted that the present First Lord of the Admiralty did not follow in the steps of the Earl of Auckland, who appointed a department in connexion with his office to take charge of this important subject. Now, the matter was left with the Treasury, the Colonial Office, and the Trinity Board, and there was no unity in the system. When he and others voted for the alteration of the navigation laws, they were promised that the shipping interest would be relieved from these dues; but no relief had been afforded up to that time. He believed that the colonies would contribute to the expense of erecting lighthouses if the Government gave them any assistance. Vote agreed to. (18.) 30,000l., Repository, Public Records. MR. HUME said, he was not going to object to the vote. All he wanted was, that they should not leave the building in the hands of Mr. Barry; for nothing could be more disgraceful to a civilised country than the folly which was going on with respect to the New Houses of Parliament. He did not wish to see any more public buildings, unless there was to be a responsible person to guard against any increase of expenditure. He had not seen the plan of the proposed Record Depository, but he had read the report, and it appeared to him to be a very proper report. All that he wanted was, that they should be secured against any abuse in the construction of the building. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the head of the Woods and Forests Department would be responsible for the expenditure of the money. COLONEL SIBTHORP: Could not be in worse hands. MR. HENLEY: A Record Office was certainly desirable. He hoped they would provide against the possibility of the building being found too small in a short time for the purposes for which it was to be erected. The report did not appear to be satisfactory as to the amount of accommo- | moval of these prisoners, but they could dation to be afforded. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the plan contemplated a structure to be raised in four different periods. No. 1 would provide for all existing records, and the expense of it would be covered by a sum of 45,000l. No. 2 would provide for all records for 100 years. Then Nos. 3 and 4 were to follow, so that they made provision for the future as well as the present. Vote agreed to. (19.) 8,000l. to complete the Vote for Law Charges, Treasury. MR. HUME said, that the salary of the Solicitor of the Treasury was 1,8501.; but he wished to know whether there were any bills in addition. It was an economical practice to pay the solicitors by a fixed sum; but he wanted to guard the public against the system which had prevailed in the office of Woods and Forests, where certain parties had received immense sums as law charges for duties which ought to be performed by the solicitors. MR. CORNEWALL LEWIS said, that the Solicitor of the Treasury devoted his entire time to his office, and he received nothing but his salary. Vote agreed to, as were the following:(20.) 3,5551. to complete the Vote for Coin Prosecutions. (21.) 7,700l. to complete the Vote for Sheriffs' Expenses, &c. (22.) 5,3301. to complete the Vote for Insolvent Debtors' Court. not obtain any redress. The Judge stated that it was perfectly illegal that these men should be left in the county gaol. On looking over the estimates it would be found that a sum of 700,000l. had been taken off the county rates of England, and placed on the Consolidated Fund. It was impossible that Ireland could bear the weight of taxation now placed upon her. MR. CORNEWALL LEWIS believed that it would be found, if the average of the last three years for this charge was taken, that a greater amount had been given to Ireland. Before 1846 the moiety of the charge for criminal prosecutions in this country was paid by an annual vote of Parliament. In that year the entire charge was transferred from the county rate to the Exchequer, and this was done with the view of equalising the allowance to the two countries. Also the moiety of the charge for the maintenance of convicts in gaol, and certain allowances for certain county officers. Compensating allowances were made in Ireland, and a very considerable sum was transferred from the county rates to the Consolidated Fund, such as the expense of the constabulary and certain other charges connected with the poor-law. COLONEL DUNNE felt assured, if he had the papers on this subject, he should be able to induce the Committee to come to a very different conclusion from that of his hon. Friend. MR. H. A. HERBERT stated, that in the county which he represented (Kerry), (23.) 44,3247. to complete the Vote for there were 1,500 prisoners in the gaol, Law Expenses, Scotland. On the next Vote, which was constructed for 130. He had himself visited the gaol, and had seen (24.) 33,7611. to complete the Vote for lunatics and convicts placed together withCriminal Prosecutions, Ireland, COLONEL DUNNE said, that in this country nearly 70,000l. which had been placed on the Consolidated Fund had formerly been borne by the county rates in Ireland. He should be told that a moiety of the police rate in Ireland had lately been thrown on the Consolidated Fund, and that the county rates were relieved from it. The late Sir R. Peel had described this as a kind of gift for the repeal of the corn laws. He did not think they were fairly treated in this matter. He must also advert to the crowded state of the Irish gaols. It appeared from the charge of a Judge to the jury, at the late assizes at Mayo, that prisoners who should be supported by the Crown were left in the gaols. The sheriffs had pressed on the Government the re out the smallest regard to classification. There could not be a matter of more importance to the country, than that Government should take some measure for removing all the convicts in the county gaols. In his county the grand jury had been seriously alarmed by its being given out that clothing would be sent to the convicts, which seemed to imply that it was the intention of Government to leave them there for a long time. MR. SADLEIR hoped that the appeal which had been made to Government would be attended to. There was most dreadful and frightful mortality and disease amongst the prisoners in the prisons of Ireland, and it was not for Government to say that they had not the means and power of removing prisoners who were convicted from these gaols. He called upon the Government to | merly did. He admitted, however, that relieve the prisoners in gaols from the there was no sufficient check over the exscenes they were subjected to, by keeping penditure at the assizes. While on that the prisoners sentenced to transportation in vote he could not help alluding to the the gaols. strange schemes which had been put forth by the inspectors of prisons. Mr. Hill, one of the inspectors, proposed to erect one enormous prison for the whole county of Lincoln, and a very large tract of land was to be included within its boundary, which was to be cultivated by the convicts, who were for the most part agricultural la SIR G. GREY could assure the hon. Member for Kerry that the greatest exertions had been made on the part of the Government to remedy the evil; but it should be remembered that there had been a large and sudden increase in the number of convicts in Ireland sentenced to the punishment of transportation. Govern-bourers. He need hardly say the adoption ment had exerted itself in every possible way, and he was happy in being able to state that an arrangement had been made for the maintenance, at the expense of the Government, of 3,500 convicts, now in the county gaols, at Spike Island. A large number of convicts had also been transported to the colonies, and there were also two ships under orders to convey a further number of convicts abroad from Ireland. It was impossible for the Government to provide at a moment's notice for such a considerable increase in the number of con victs. Vote agreed to; as was the following (25.) 15,500l. to complete the Vote for Metropolitan Police, Dublin. (26.) 90,000l. to complete the Vote for County Rates. MR. V. SMITH asked whether any steps had been taken to produce something like a uniformity in the scale of fees for prosecutions at the various assizes? SIR G. GREY had stated the other day that it was very desirable that in all the counties and boroughs there should be something like a uniform scale for prosecutions. At present there was the greatest variety, and although attempts would be made to produce something like uniformity, there still would be some variety in consequence of the peculiar circumstances of different counties. MR. HENLEY expressed a hope that the right hon. Gentleman, in his attempt to provide a uniform scale, would not incur an increased charge. MR. HUME objected to the vote, as the country had to pay it, and there was no person to control the expenditure. If they paid the expenses of these prosecutions, there should be some Government officer who should be responsible for the mode in which the money was laid out. SIR J. TROLLOPE said, at present the magistrates exercised the same careful control over the expenditure as they for of such a powerful scheme was out of the question, as all efficient control over the prisoners would be at an end. He would ask whether those gentlemen who were engaged as inspectors of prisons were worth the salaries which were paid to them? MR. AGLIONBY wished to refer the Committee to an Amendment in the Criminal Justice Bill, which he had suggested, with regard to taking the pleas of prisoners in cases of larceny and midemeanour, for the first offence, before the magistrates at petty sessions. The effect of his Amendment would be to save the country 40,000l. or 50,000l. per annum. Vote agreed to. (27.) 7,550l. to complete the Vote for Inspectors of Prisons. SIR J. TROLLOPE moved, as an Amendment, to reduce the Vote by 2,100l., the amount of the salaries of the three inspectors of prisons. The reports of these gentlemen contained much useless or objectionable matter, and he thought it time, therefore, that they should cease. SIR G. GREY hoped the Committee would not consent to this reduction, for he believed the greatest advantage had been derived from the appointment of these inspectors. At the same time he would admit that the reports of some of the inspectors had contained matter which had better been excluded from them. Some of the suggestions made by the inspectors of prisons were suggestions that ought to be addressed to the Secretary of State, and were in no degree binding upon the county magistrates unless they were recommended by the Secretary of State. The duty of these inspectors was defined by law; it was their duty to inquire into facts, rather than to report opinions or make recommendations. They might undoubtedly make recommendations to the Secretary of State for the consideration of the Government, but he thought it was out of their province to make direct recommendations to the county magistrates. The subject had been | to ask the right hon. Baronet the Secreunder the consideration of the Committee tary of State for the Home Department on Prison Discipline, and he thought it whether he would be prepared with some would be desirable to effect gradually some additional prisons and places of confinechange in the system of inspection, by ment, if there should be occasion for them, rendering it more uniform, and by having when the Exposition of Industry took one chief inspector, and several sub-in-place next year? He understood the right spectors, who should report facts to the hon. Baronet intended to increase the pochief inspector, leaving him to report to lice force, as he was told, by some 2,000 the Government what opinions he thought men; and he cautioned the right hon. Genfit. There was too much disposition on tleman to be prepared for what might the part of inspectors generally to write occur, and for what he feared would occur, essays and pamphlets, and it was difficult and not to build a glass house in Hyde to check that description of authorship. Park until he had laid the foundations of a The Committee must not suppose, how- prison somewhat larger than any now exever, that that was all the prison inspectors isting in the metropolis. Crime was on did, for their labours had led to very valu- the increase, and if the accursed free-trade able results. system was continued, they must expect it to go on increasing, and next year they would have London and the provinces inundated with a set of fellows who, if they were not lost before they got here, would prove a great curse to the country. In reply to Mr. HUME, MR. T. EGERTON said, that in a district with which he was connected as a county magistrate the late prison inspector had been perfectly satisfied with the management of the gaol, but a new inspector had been recently appointed who entertained different notions, and he told the magistrates their arrangements were altogether wrong. Now, it was a very unpleasant thing for the magistrates to be told by the inspector, "Your gaol is very ill managed, and I shall think it my duty to report it to the Secretary of State, SIR J. TROLLOPE begged to withdraw although the previous inspector had fully his Amendment, as the object he had in view approved of the prison management. He had been answered by the remarks of the hoped the inspectors would pay some at-right hon. Baronet with regard to the intention to the suggestions which had just been made by the right hon. Baronet. COLONEL SIBTHORP had visited several prisons, and had never seen a set of more jolly, happy, well-fed, well-clothed fellows than the convicts were. They were much better fed, much better clothed, aud much more lively, he was sorry to say, than the agricultural labourers of England were at present. There was too great a disposition on the part of the public to sympathise with criminals. When men committed such crimes as the assassination of Mr. Drummond, why, they were under the influence of monomania. He remembered hearing that on one occasion a jury applied to Chief Justice Hale, as a Christian, to extend mercy to a criminal. The Chief Justice replied, "I hope, as a Christian, that I am disposed to exercise mercy, but there is a mercy due to the country. The prisoner is a notorious scoundrel, and I shall hang him." He (Colonel Sibthorp) thought that principle might with great advantage be carried into effect more extensively that it was at present. He wished SIR G. GREY said, that a considerable reduction had been effected in the expenditure for the Pentonville Prison. The subject had been very fully investigated by a Committee, whose report would be laid on the table before the end of the Session. spection of prisons. The report of Mr. Amendment withdrawn. The following votes were also agreed to: (28.) 137,2241., to complete the Vote for Convict Establishments at Home. (29.) 65,8481., to complete the Vote for Convict Establishments Abroad. (30.) 69,230l., to complete the Vote for Transportation of Convicts. (31.) 100,147., to complete the Vote for Convict Establishments, Colonies. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow. Committee to sit again To-morrow. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. lease, of the charitable property would have to be executed by the treasurer of the county court; and he would leave it to the House to decide whether that was a reasonable course, or one which was likely to save expense. The Bill had not been sufficiently considered; and as he was sure that it would involve charities in litigation, confusion, and expense, he should move that it be read a third time that day three months. Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months." MR. TURNER said, that as the Amend- | judge, and the trust might be placed in the ments which had been introduced in Com-hands of the treasurer of the county court. mittee had not removed the objections Every lease, therefore, or agreement for a which he entertained to the measure, he should feel it his duty to take the sense of the House on the question of its further progress. Since the Bill was last before the House, a report had been presented from the Commission appointed in 1849, for the purpose of inquiring into those charities which were not reported on to the Attorney General under the authority of the Commission issued in 1835. The House would be surprised to learn that there were 23,746 charities under 301. a year, and not less than 27,000 charities ranging between 301. and 100l. a year. The report recommended the creation of some permanent authority, which should be charged with the duties of supervising all those charitable trusts; but the Bill proposed to place those which were below 301. under the jurisdiction of the county courts, and the charities which were between 301. and 1007., in the hands of the Masters of the Court of Chancery. The report of the Commission, therefore, appointed by Her Majesty, which recommended the creation of an officer or board for the regulation of these trusts, appeared to him to be in direct contradiction to the present Bill. He would take, in the first place, those charities ranging between 307. and 100l. which the Bill proposed to vest in the Masters of the Court of Chancery, whose power was to be exercised without appeal. The result would be, that as ten new judges were thus created, there would be ten different opinions on the construction of charitable trusts. With regard to the minor charities falling below 30l., the throwing the appointment of the trustees into the hands of the county courts, would make them entirely subservient to political and party purposes. The judge of the county court would want the requisite local knowledge, and the consequence must follow that these gentlemen would be guided by the advice of their clerks, who were generally political agents. He had no hesitation in saying, that in his opinion great evils had already arisen from the perversion of charitable funds to party purposes under the Municipal Corporation Act. It was true that the Bill gave an appeal from the judge, but that appeal was to be upon facts as settled by the very judge from whose decision the appeal was brought. Again, if a trustee of one of the charities happened to be abroad, he might be superseded by the The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, he should detain the House for only a very short time. First, as to the report, he wished to say that it was not by any means the intention of the Commissioners to delay the Bill; and if hon. Members only looked at the report they would see that it was the evident desire of the Commissioners to forward the Bill as much as possible. They would see also that the Commissioners had suggested a special mode of keeping the accounts of charitable funds, as well as that of creating a special tribunal; and, though there were strong objections on general grounds to the establishment of special tribunals confined to particular objects of jurisdiction, as contradistinguished from the present mode of administering the law in this country, yet experience had shown it to be highly desirable that small matters relating to charitable trusts should be adjudicated on by the judges of the county courts. There were upwards of 23,000 charities under 301., and many of them only a few shillings. Now, it was essential, above all things, that these matters should be dealt with cheaply; and it could be easily shown that the Bill would not produce the effects which his hon. and learned Friend apprehended. Of the jurisdiction given to the ten Masters, namely, that of dealing with charities from 30l. to 100l., there might, perhaps, be some apprehension that with ten Masters there might be ten different tribunals, with varieties of practice and conflicting decisions; but he would appeal to any one acquainted with the proceedings in the Masters' offices to say if there were not great uniformity of decisions there, owing to this, amongst other causes-that the Masters were in the habit of consulting, with a view to the |