shall not be ignored or taken from them. There are one or two matters only upon which I desire to say a word more. Much reference has been made to the position of Parties in this House, and it is said to be an error for anyone of us to state that my right hon. Friend's Government, when he succeeds to it, as doubtless he will, will be supported by an Irish majority. Well, we need not, I think, discuss with very minute niceness how far you can apportion parts of a majority; but this fact stands forward—that you have now no majority in support of this unknown policy, whatever it will be, in Great Britain, and it exists only in Ireland. Why, it may be asked, do we pick out this Irish majority and say that you are dependent upon it? I will not use again the trite quotation that so many have referred to; but my right hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian was the statesman who taught us that if we had not a majority from Great Britain to conduct public affairs it would be dangerous, perhaps destructive, for a Government to be controlled by what he termed an Irish majorfty. These were words of great sagacity when used in November, 1885. They are still more true now. They are being proved to be true at this present moment. In 1885 the Irish Nationalist Members were united. They had one head whom they obeyed and who could control them. It was supposed that they spoke with one voice-one opinion was expressed upon every proposal. But now in Ireland we have two Nationalist Parties, one pitted against the other, and it will not be the opinion of a united Nationalist Party in Ireland that we shall now have to be governed by. It will by that voice that will speak for the purpose of obtaining support in the polls of Ireland, and a voice that will be in competition with another. Can we conceive any position more humiliating to the great Liberal Party than that it occupies at this moment? (Laughter.) I repeat it more humiliating than it occupies at this moment. It is about to bear the responsibility-and you will not deny it-of introducing a new measure that shall pull to pieces the Constitution of this country. You may tell me you may replace it, but, at any rate, before you replace it you must pull that Constitution to pieces. And now let us picture the Government sitting round the Council Table when the measure will have to be considered. What will be the question that the Advisers of the Queen will then be asking each other? Will they be saying to each other, "Is this unjust is this a right measure we are proposing?" I may assure my right hon. Friend-I hope he will not think it presumptuous of me—that we give him the fullest-I ought not to say credit— the fullest acknowledgment that he has one sincere and earnest desire, to carry this measure of Home Rule. If that be so, what will be the question that certain statesmen who sit by his side will be asking, and will they not, in their loyalty, in their adherence to their Leader, say, “ What is the measure we can carry?" My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) has said that no measure will be proposed that will not be acceptable to the Irish people. What, then, is the meaning of "the Irish people"?-the Party support of seventyone Members in this House. And this great measure, which is to deal with interests so mighty as the interests alike of the Empire, of Great Britain, and of Ireland, will depend upon the Parliamentary support that can be obtained from seventy-one Members of this House. If that measure is not made acceptable to their views so as to gain their support, it never can be carried; and if that support can be obtained the measure that will be submitted will be framed So as to secure it. But it is also true, and rightly true, that at this moment the control of the Government of this country is in the hands of a higher power in Ireland. You must remember that behind the Party represented by the hon. Member for North Longford (Mr. Justin McCarthy) is a power which I am not going to refer to at length to-night-but the power that is now controlling the Liberal Party will be the power that returned seventy-one Irish Members to Parliament. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith) said that this Government had chosen the date for the General Election | object of our very existence will depart; most suitable to its own interests, and if you fail in carrying out your policy we had chosen the time when it could shall have succeeded; and then to us obtain the largest majority. (Cheers.) will be, not the mere exultant triumph You cheer that. But there is a that will follow a numerical majority, Member of your own Party who but the sure and certain consciousness made a most remarkable prophecy. Mr. that we have performed our duty to Childers said that the number of your the best of our ability, and that we supporters would be 355, and the have frustrated the plans and objects number of Unionists would be 315. of those who we believe have neglected He added a rider to that prophecy. their duty alike to their Sovereign and to their country. "If," said he, "you take the Election late in the autumn we shall be fifteen worse and the Unionists will be fifteen better." So, if the General Election had been taken late in the autumn, which the Government of the day could have done, your majority would have been reduced from forty to ten, with the result that the Party led by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) would have controlled the fortunes of the present Opposition. Sir, this is a time of which the Liberal Party need not be proud. It is a time when they will in a few moments, no doubt, find from the Tellers at this Table that they have obtained a numerical majority. I can anticipate THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. H. CHAPLIN, Lincolnshire, Sleaford): Mr. Speaker: and 66 Har("Divide!" "Order!' court!") MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Mr. Chaplin. MR. CHAPLIN: I would gladly give way for the right hon. Member for Derby, whose appearance is evidently expected by this side of the House; but as the right hon. Gentleman, in the exercise of his discretion, thinks it inconsistent with his duty to encourage the continuance of the Debate, I will venture to intervene for a few moments before we go to a Division-a Division their exultant cheers when the numbers are announced. Let the which will be of historic interest. triumph of to-night be theirs. There We have now been engaged in this are triumphs that are worse than Debate for a good many days, and I disasters. There are victories better cannot help feeling that very little unwon. This will be one of such remains to be said. It has never been victories; but before many months the policy of the Tory Party, and it never are past there will be many who will be, to take refuge in a conspiracy will feel some regret that they of ignoble silence. We think we should have framed and fashioned their policy be wanting in courtesy and respect, for the moment to obtain Office, for- both to the House and to those who getful of the great traditions of their have taken part in the Debate, if we Party. ("Oh!") Only one word more were to take no further notice of the may I say as to the position that we course of this discussion. I cannot occupy? I have said that we have had a share the opinion of Gentlemen on the kindly interest" taken in us of late other side that this has been a barren -since we were not swept away. It and useless Debate. It has served the has been asked, what position are the purpose of showing prominently to the Liberal Unionists about to take in country and to every impartial person public affairs in the future? That how aimless and how worthless is the question is easy to answer. For six policy-if, indeed, it can be dignified years we have stood in this path. For by that name-of our opponents. It six years we have saved the position. seems to be a policy of drivel and drift. So long as that is imperilled we stand I am quite aware that a policy of drift by this Legislative Union. If you may sometimes be useful to emcarry its destruction, I admit the barrassed statesmen ; it may b very convenient; but it almost invariably leads to disaster, not only to the Party which practises it, but also to the country which that Party attempts to govern. I turn to the speeches delivered in this House on Tuesday evening by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) and the Leader of the House (Mr. A. J. Balfour) for an illustration of my statement. That was, indeed, an encounter of giants, which we are not likely to see repeated in this House. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) put forth all those powers and all those resources of the art of rhetoric, in which he is without a rival, to bring about the discomfiture of his opponents. He sought, with perfect fairness I admit, to damage the Leader of the Government and his Party in order that he might succeed in ejecting him from power, and occupy the position which the right hon. Gentleman fills at present. But my right hon. Friend was equal to the occasion. I may be pardoned for holding the opinion that in the reply which he delivered to the right hon. Gentleman he was the victor in argument from the beginning, though I cannot expect my opponents to agree in that opinion. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) was unfortunately absent during a portion of the speech of my right hon. Friend, and I am sure I express the sentiments of many Gentlemen on both sides of the House when I say that I am glad to see that he has recovered from the indisposition which I am sure was the only reason that could have kept him away. (Interruption and cries of "Divide !") I should like to remind hon. Members below the Gangway, many of whom are new to the House, that it is by no means unusual to continue a Debate at a quarter past eleven o'clock, especially when it is a Debate upon the issues of which the fortunes of a Government and a country depend. The right hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down (Sir Henry James) referred to some remarks made in the course of this Debate by the right hon. Member for Midlothian with respect to the House of Lords. Those remarks, in my opinion, were premature and uncalled for, because they were based on the assumption that he will be able to devise a Home Rule measure which is certain to pass through this House. I do not wish in any way to express disbelief in the undoubted powers of the right hon. Gentleman, especially in the direction of constructive legislation; but I am unable to share his sanguine anticipations, and I will venture to direct the attention of the House to three points in vindication of my doubt. In the first place, I will refer to the new conditions which have been imported into the future Home Rule Bill as to the retention of the Irish Members at Westminster; in the second place, I will call attention to the demands by the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond); and, in the third place, I must refer to the question of the supremacy of the Imperial Parliament, which was driven home to-night by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. (Increased interruptions; loud and continued cries of "Divide !") I think it is not too much to ask the House to extend to me the courtesy of listening to me for a few moments. New conditions have been imported into the Home Rule Question by the proposal that the Irish Members shall be retained at Westminster. There are many new Members of this House who, perhaps, have not had the opportunity of listening to former declarations on this subject by the right hon. Gentleman. I have been more fortunate-I was in the House of Commons when the right hon. Gentleman introduced his Home Rule Bill, and I listened to him with the closest attention; and if there was one point more than another on which he laid special emphasis, it was the absolute impossibility of retaining the Irish Members in the English Parliament, and yet grant them a Parliament of their own in Dublin. I will read some portions of the right hon. Gentleman's utterances on the subject. [Mr. Chaplin then proceeded to read a number of extracts from speeches by Mr. Gladstone, but owing to the continual ironical cheering and cries of "Divide!" failed to make himself heard. Comparative quiet having been obtained the right hon. Gentleman resumed]: What did the right hon. Gentleman tell the people of 425 Midlothian. (Renewed uproar.) I fear I speech, and perhaps I may be allowed the hon. Member in which some hon. Members have not recovered to refer to some of the statements in from the excitement of the General it, and (Loud Election. prolonged dealt with pledges which have been shouts of "Divide!" and "Order!") given by the Liberal Party. The hon. Even as a humble Member of the Member reminded us of the statement hon. of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Government, I must remind Members, in whatever part of the Gladstone) that Ireland blocked the House they sit, that a great Con- way; that not merely the consideration stitutional question of this kind cannot and discussion, but the effective settlebe discussed without order and decorum.ment of the Irish National Question The right hon. Gentleman the Member must be the first work of the Liberal for Midlothian has asked what we are Party, and that until that settlement had to consider the basis of the present been brought about, those great EngHe lish questions crying for reform must of Parliamentary system in Ireland. said, "Is it the present division of the necessity remain in abeyance. The country into districts and the present pledge given by the Leader of the number of its Members, or will you Liberal Party, as the hon. Member for endeavour to re-construct that system, Waterford reminded us, was that to re-adjust it with reference to its English, Scotch, and Welsh reforms relations with England and Scotland, could not be undertaken until the quesor with reference to any other con- tion of Irish Home Rule had been dissideration?" Then the right hon. Gen-cussed, voted upon, and passed into tleman comes to the question which the whole Unionist Party have been asking "How is it to be him for six years, done? What is the answer of the They are to right hon. Gentleman? be dealt with by the responsible Of course Ministers of the Crown." they are, and the information is as precisely instructive and useful as if the right hon. Gentleman had informed the electors of Midlothian that the Home Rule Bill itself was to be dealt with by the responsible Ministers of the Crown. That is all we have learned during those six years, and, in the absence of further information, I am reluctantly driven to the conclusion that the right hon. Gentleman is doing his best to impose upon the people of the country a scheme which, if I may judge from his own words recorded in Hansard, delivered when he was Prime Minister, he knows it will be impossible to carry That new condition in itself, even if it stood alone, would be sufficient to place an insuperable obstacle in the way of the successful carrying out of this Bill. But it does not stand alone. I will refer for a moment to the speech of the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond), one of the most important and able speeches we have had during this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian had not the good fortune to hear that law. But how, I ask, does this square Un 427 Address in Answer to (COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 428 has made reference to-night. The hon. I distinction in this Assembly in terms of Member pointed out as clearly as it was veiled menace of what may unhappily possible to do what the Irish Party await them if they venture to offer meant by the veto upon the proceedings opposition to a measure of this kind, of an Irish Parliament. That veto, he I say the House of Lords will long said, was to be exercised in accordance survive the motley crew of this assumed with the advice of Irish Ministers-in majority, and fearlessly discharge its accordance with their advice alone. Constitutional duties. (Renewed interNow I am entitled to ask this question, ruptions.) I state my opinion, upon How does that square with the which hon. Gentlemen opposite may views of the right hon. Gentleman the set what value they please, and I Member for Derby (Sir William should not be afraid to support my Harcourt)? How can that be opinion, if this were a fitting occasion, reconciled with the declarations by a sporting wager that, even if this of one and all of the Leaders assumed majority live to meet Parliaof the Radical Party opposite? I venture to mention this without putting forward the slightest claim for myself as an authority upon Constitutional Law; but I may say it is mpossible to dissociate the veto of the Crown from the advice of English Ministers. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby is, or believes himself to be, a great authority on Constitutional Law. Does he deny this assertion on my part? By his silence he admits it. ment again there are recorded instances where Governments have disappeared without meeting Parliament at all-it will never survive an ordinary Parliamentary Session. (Interruptions.) That may be considered a strong expression of opinion, but I have good reason for it in the fact that in the vast majority of cases this majority was obtained under false pretences. My right hon. Friend has referred to some of the amazing fables by which the support of voters has been won. Let me point out one of these fables, which during the past six years has The right hon. Gentleman's remarks being subjected to continual interrup-been repeated more often by Members tion, which rendered much of what he was saying inaudible, MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I hope the House will accord the right hon. Gentleman a patient hearing. MR. CHAPLIN: This is a most serious question. It is one of the many serious questions which will have to be considered in detail by this House when the Home Rule proposition is before us; but I do not think I am premature in pointing out what appears to me to be the more salient difficulties before you, because the whole of my argument is founded on this—that at present there is neither warrant nor justification for the belief that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends will be able to place on the Table of this House a measure which will have the slightest chance of passing into law. When the House of Lords is warned by men of power and of the Radical Party than others, and for which a very distinguished man is responsible. It has been stated over and over again during this time that we, the Liberal Unionist and Conservative Party, have broken all the pledges we gave at the last General Election—that while we declared we were opposed to a policy of coercion in Ireland, we, in spite of that declaration, passed one of the severest Coercion Laws Book. (Interruptions.) I am not in the that ever found a place on the Statute least surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite should believe that to be true, because the author of that fable—one of the earliest authors-was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian himself. What did the right hon. Gentleman say during the General Election of 1886? (Interruptions.) It would seem hon. Gentlemen wish to prevent me from continuing-they are afraid of these allusions. During the Election of 1886, the right hon. Gentleman made a charge against the Conservative Party of which I do not |