been inferted in a petition prefented to that Houfe. His Grace then took up the petition, and read thofe paragraphs to the House, which reprobated the bill as an act of injuftice, oppreffion, and abfurdity, and as a grofs violation of the conftitution. This his Grace thought a fort of ftile that should not have been ufed by petitioners. He faid it was, he well knew, a rule of that House, never to make itself the advocate and defender of the conduct of the House of Commons; but in like manner, he conceived, their Lordships ought not to abet its calumniators, or countenance thofe who charge the House of Commons with having been guilty of oppreffion, injuftice, and a breach of the conftitution.

The Duke of Richmond defended the petition, and faid it TheDuke of had been drawn up in the very language of a famous proteft, Richmond. figned by the late Marquis of Rockingham, and many other noble Lords. The noble Duke who now objected to ftrong expreffions, had not always, he remarked, equally difapproved of them. He reminded his Grace of having himself, a few years fince, introduced a petition from America, couched in very strong expreffions. With regard to the petition, now the fubject of difcuffion, he begged the Houfe to recollect, that it was a petition againft a bill depending in Parliament, that the bill went to disfranchife the petitioners, and to difpoffefs them of their property; and that without any specific charge of delinquency having been alledged even against them. He contended therefore that no language could be too ftrong for fuch an occafion; and he expatiated on the right of the fubject to petition the House whenever they thought their franchifes, privileges, or property likely to be endangered by any bill then before Parliament.

The Duke of Manchefter reminded the Houfe, that he had The Dukeof began his fpeech by exprefsly declaring he did not object to Manchester the petition; and he flattered himself, their Lordships knew him too well, to fuppofe him capable of denying the subjects' right to petition Parliament in any cafe whatfoever. With regard to the petition brought in by him fome years fince, to which the noble Duke had alluded, "it was a petition from New York, which he had not been permitted to prefent, unlefs he would undertake to say, that the petition did not deny the right of this country to tax America.

The city petition was, upon motion, ordered to lie upon the table.

The Order of the Day was then called for, and Mr. Rous and Mr. Dallas appeared as counfel for the Eaft-India Com

pany;

pany; Mr. Hardinge and Mr. Plomer as counsel for the directors.

manner.

Mr. Rous opened the cause of his clients in a very mafterly He stated, in very warm and expreffive language, the enormity and injuftice of the prefent bill. He observed that as there was no fpecific charge brought against his conftituents, he would be under the neceflity of proving their merits with the public, by evidence at the bar of the Houfe, and to prove the actual fituation of India, by the last advices. Under the firft head, Mr. Rous ftated, that the additional cuftoms paid by the Eaft-India Company, for fifteen years, were the acquitments of the Dewannee, and exceeded the fum of the fifteen years antecedent to that period, in the fum of five millions fterling. That the fum paid by the Company to the public, as their participation of the territorial revenues, was three millions fterling; fo in fact the Cumpany was, to this moment, a confiderable lofer by the territorial acquifitions, though the nation had been a gainer, for the fums expended by the Company in acquiring those revenues, exceeded their receipts in the fum of five millions and upwards. But the acquifition of the Dewannee had, in every point of view, been a moft important object to the British nation. Mr. Rous then ftated, that the exports from this country, fince the territorial acquifitions, had amounted last June to about five hundred thousand pounds. He next remarked upon the flourishing ftate of the Company's credit; and faid, that if Parliament would give them leave to borrow, their debt to the ftate would inftantly be paid off. The credit of the Company could only be deftroyed by the paffing of the present bill. Mr. Rous then faid he would bring evidence to prove, that in Bengal, Bahar, Benares, and Ŏude, we enjoyed profound peace, a firm government, an encreafing revenue, and had effected a reduction of expences. The Carnatic was evacuated. The account of the peace had arrived in India, and all hoftilities had ceafed between us and the French. That peace was concluded on fuch terms with the Marattas as muft make it lafting; and fuch was Tippoo Saib's fituation, that he had undoubtedly made peace with us, under the terms of the Sixteenth Article of the Treaty of Peace. Of this Mr. Rous faid he was fo confident, that he would forfeit his head if it was not the cafe. After dwelling very fully on these feveral heads, Mr. Rous proceeded to call in feveral witneffes.

The

The evidence continued for feveral hours. The charters, acts of Parliament, grants, and other authentic documents of the Company's tenure and ftate, were read. The evidence was claffed under feparate heads, and evidence, written and oral, brought to each point. When the counsel came to propofe, to prove that peace was restored to the Carnatic,

rough.

Lord Loughborough rose and observed, that the counsel had Lord already gone a great deal more at length into evidence than Loughbo was neceffary, and by abandoning the only true, fenfible, and rational way in which written evidence could be given, had mifpent much of their Lordships' time, and at the fame time, afforded their Lordships lefs real information than they might have derived, had the written evidence been adduced in the ufual and cuftomary method, which was by authenticating the feveral papers by the proper officers, and handing them up to the table. Inftead of this, they had gone into question and anfwer upon the whole, and by that means fo lengthened out the bufinefs, that he could not for his part help fufpecting, that the learned gentlemen at the bar had been inftructed to take up as much of the time of the House as their ingenuity could fuggeft, in order to protract the bill, and thus prevent its paffing till it were too late to be sent to India in February next, which every body who knew any thing of the best period of the year for fetting fail for Afia, knew February to be. The bill, his Lordship said, had, by a variety of rumours and mifreprefentations that had been fpread abroad, been mifconceived and mifunderstood. He could not therefore but feel extremely anxious to come as foon as poffible to that fair examination of it, that would fhew it in its true light, and refcue it from all the calumny and falsehood that had been caft upon it. If it were longer delayed, the mischiefs would become ferious, and the moft fatal confequences might attend its arrival in India, where it would in that cafe probably find a faction ready formed to oppose it, and a party envenomed with false prejudices against it, prepared to defeat its purposes. From the little attention that the greater part of their Lordships had paid to the evidence already (and he by no means blamed their Lordships for not having paid more attention, because most of what had been proved, was perfectly immaterial to the bill) but from the little attention paid already, it was not very likely that they would pay a great deal of attention to the mass of dull, dry, and uninterefting matter, that the counfel were preparing to lay before their Lordships; as therefore he had VOL. XIV. before

H

Lord Thurlow.

before waited for the difcretion of the counfel in vain, and was confirmed in his fufpicions, that their going so much at length into a recital circumftantially and verbally, of matters already in print, of matters of public notoriety, and which neither the bill, nor those who were friends to it, pretended to difpute, was done for the purpose of protracting the paffing of the bill; he fhould endeavour to fave the learned gentlemen at the bar, and their Lordfhips fome trouble, by moving that they be reftrained from going into proofs of the Carnatic's having been evacuated, and peace being eftablished in it, as it was a fact univerfally admitted,

Lord Thurlow differed entirely with the learned Lord respecting the evidence that had already been produced. He conceived the counsel had acted with the greateft propriety; their clients had employed them to do what? only to rescue them from a general imputation laid against them in a bill, for it brought no fpecific charge. How was it poffible for them to defend themfelves, otherwife than by producing, in the firft inftance, authentic documents to their right, and afterwards, by a fair ftatement of their tranfactions and circumftances, to prove they had not abused that right. He agreed with the learned Lord, that fome part of the evidence which had been produced at the bar might as well have been omitted; but he was far from faying, that held good with regard to the dispatches that were to prove that peace was established in India; and for this plain reason-the preamble of the bill ftated, that by the mifmanagement of the Company, they had brought themselves almost to a bankrupt ftate, and that it required the immediate interpofition of Government to fave them from ruin. Now if they could adduce evidence to prove they had not mifmanaged, but that their finances here were not defpicable, and their fituation abroad in a flourishing ftate, furely the preamble of the bill could not be founded in fact, and that plea of neceffity, which had been fo ftrenuoufly dwelt upon, did not exift, for then there could be no neceffity for this measure. Ay, but then, fays the learned Lord, if the bill does not pass immediately, which is folely for the regulation of the Company's affairs at home, it will totally prevent gentlemen from failing in proper time to take upon them their appointments in India. What advantage was intended by that argument, he was entirely at a lofs to comprehend: but even admitting the Company were actually the culprits they were faid to be,

would

would their Lordships have it recorded in their journals, that they had refused to give them an opportunity to establish their innocence? Should it be faid, the conftitution of this country allowed an individual, where his property was concerned, to appear by counsel at the bar of that House, and give his reafons why they fhould not proceed; and yet, when an act was brought in to deprive a corporate body of their charter, and to invest their property in the hands of strangers, their counfel fhould be checked, and restrained from producing that evidence which, in all likelihood, would prove their affairs were in fo excellent a train, that it would not be in the power of mifmanagement, in the power of whoever this bill might appoint, to put them in disorder. If the learned Lord had thought the counfel were guilty of mif-fpending their Lordships' time, why did he not ftate his fufpicions fooner? Why did he leave it till peace was mentioned, and proofs were offered of its being ratified, with the authorities, and that hoftilities were ceafed in the Carnatic? These were circumftances that would not, moft certainly, act very forcibly in criminating the Company for mismanagement, or for having brought themselves on the verge of ruin; perhaps it was upon this principle they had been objected to. When parties were admitted to the bar of that House, their cafe would be peculiarly hard, if any noble Lord could get up and reftrain the counfel from what might very likely be the moft material part of his evidence. Could fuch a measure be called juftice? If not, should it be faid that the first court of judicature in this kingdom gave fanction to it? He trufted not. The people's rights ought to be held facred; and it would be highly fubverfive of those rights, in his opinion, to punish where no delinquency was proved, to cenfure where every approbation was due. The bufinefs before your Lordships is of fuch a complicated and critical defcription, that every fpecies of information will be found indifpenfable to a fair apprehenfion of it. And inftead of blaming counfel for giving you too much, your Lordships ought to thank them for the pains they have taken to contract it into a proper form, and prefent it at your Lordships' bar under a clear and connected point of view. They might, inftead of a few papers, not tedious or complicated, they might have infifted on reading five hundred volumes this, however, they had relinquished for fuch an abstract of the whole, as may not interfere either with the patience or the ordinary inode of the Houfe. The learned

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