subject of the reporting. I would say, so far as my knowledge is concerned-"

Elder White. Mr. Chairman: "I made that as a part of my speech. He has had two speeches to answer it. It must be answered in his speech, and go in as a part of the record of this debate."

The Chairman decided against Mr. Russell.

Tuesday Evening, February 25, 1908.

(Chairman, M. C. KURFEES, Church of Christ, Louisville, Ky.)

THIRD PROPOSITION.

The Scriptures clearly teach that the punishment of the (finally incorrigible) wicked will consist of conscious, painful, suffering, eternal in duration.

L. S. White, affirmative.

C. T. Russell, negative.

L. S. WHITE'S FIRST SPEECH.

Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am glad to be in the affirmative on this great question that has been just read in your hearing, that "The Scriptures clearly teach that the punishment of the (finally incorrigible) wicked will consist of conscious, painful suffering, eternal in duration." And in order that the point at issue may be clearly defined so that there can be no mistake as to what the issue is on this question, I shall proceed for a moment in a definition of terms.

Punishment-Penalty inflicted for the committing of crime or offense. Incorrigible Wicked-Those who can not be corrected or amended. Conscious-That which the subject realizes.

Punishment begins and is carried on with the consciousness of pain inflicted because of guilt contracted through the violation of law or the neglect of duty.

Painful Suffering-Feeling or undergoing pain.

Eternal in Duration-Without end, for ever and ever.

I wish at this time to call your attention unto two words that will be investigated extensively at this time, they being "sheol" in the Old Testa

ment and "hades" in the New Testament, so that there can be no mistake as to the teaching of God's word on this question, or my speech either as for that matter. The word "sheol" is used 65 times-31 times translated "grave," 31 times translated "hell" and 3 times translated "pit." Gesenius on "sheol" says: "The underworld, a vast subterranean place." Job 11:8; Deut. 32:22: "Full of thick darkness, where dwell the shades of the dead; the dying are Isaid to go down into Sheol." The word "sheol" itself simply denotes the world of departed spirits and does not of itself teach anything about the punishment of the wicked. The same is true of the word "hades," the equivalent of "sheol," which is ten times translated "hell" in the Authorized Version, but simply transferred in the Revised Version. Therefore, any Scripture that my distinguished opponent might introduce from the Old Testament with the word "hell" in it you may be assured of the fact now that it has no reference whatever unto eternal punishment of the wicked, and the Scriptures he may introduce on "hades" do not have reference unto the punishment of the wicked beyond this life.

But there is another word in the New Testament from which the word "hell" is translated uniformly that carries with it the idea of eternal punishment for the incorrigible wicked, and that is the word "gehenna." It is used twelve times in the New Testament, and every time without an exception refers unto the place of the punishment of the wicked beyond this life, and as this is to be the very center around which the other thoughts of this discussion revolve, I invite your attention to the twelve passages of Scripture in which the word "gehenna" is used, uniformly translated "hell" in the Authorized Version.

Matt. 5:22: "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matt. 5:29-30: "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members shall perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matt. 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matt. 18:9: "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Matt. 23:15: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Matt. 23:33: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Mark 9:43-48: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Luke 12:5: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear; fear him which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Jas. 3:6: "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

I trust now the gentleman will meet me on these twelve passages of Scripture, so that we can have some debating at this time. Using this as a foundation, I will introduce a number of strong, Scriptural and clearly logical arguments in support of these Scriptures that refer unto the future punishment of the incorrigible wicked.

But will the wicked be punished after death? Heb. 10:28-29: "He that despiseth Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" The punishment inflicted upon the sinner at the ultimate judgment will not be a mere extinction of life or physical identity, but an everlasting punishment, set forth under the strong language "eternal fire" and is to be "sorer" than death without mercy. Will Elder Russell tell us what kind of a punishment is sorer than death without mercy? This can not be death, for it is worse than death.

In Luke 16:19-31, you have the case of the rich man and Lazarus. We showed you last night that they were both conscious in the other world. They recognized what was going on. The rich man died, and in Hades he "lifted up his eyes, being in torments." Mark the words "in torments."

"And seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom, and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame." He was perfectly conscious that he was there. He was perfectly conscious that he was tormented, and begged for mercy. He knew that there would be no chance of salvation after death, as my opponent teaches. Hence he desired Abraham to send Lazarus back to this world to teach his brothers the word of God, that they might repent of their sins

in this life and thus escape that awful place of torment, knowing they would have no opportunity of salvation after death. And Abraham told him there was no chance of escape, there was no chance of passing from one place into the other. Here is an actual example of consciousness in punishment after death. He promised you last night that he would investigate this question when he came to this proposition. We wait to see.

Dan. 12:2. I call your attention to two classes to be rewarded at the resurrection, one to have everlasting life, the other shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel says: "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt." If the wicked shall cease to exist and are not conscious after death, as my opponent teaches, how can they suffer everlasting shame? Or, in other words, how can an unconscious man be ashamed of anything? But the life of the one and the contempt of the other are equal in duration, each being everlasting; hence as long as the righteous live, the wicked will have contempt. If the word "everlasting" has no end when applied to the righteous, it certainly can have no end when applied to the wicked in the same sentence.

In support of this I read John 5: 28-29: "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

But you remember that I have asked my distinguished opponent various and divers questions on these propositions, and he has utterly ignored every one of them. I will take the charitable view of it, and say possibly he has not been able to note them and get them. I am going now to ask him a number of questions on this proposition, and that he may have no excuse he now has in his hand an accurate copy of every one of these questions, just as I am going to ask them, and if he does not answer them then you can know that he can not do it.

1. Can man inflict everlasting punishment? (Matt. 10:28.)

2. Is the burning of the body everlasting punishment?

3. Did the people of Sodom suffer everlasting punishment when they were burned up with fire and brimstone? (Luke 17:29.)

4. Can a person suffer everlasting punishment more than one time?

5. What word would you use to show the future happiness of the righteous to be unending?

6. Does not our Lord use the same word to express the duration of the punishment of the wicked that he does the happiness of the righteous? (Matt. 25:46.)

7. Will this earth be burned up?

8. Will it exist after it is burned up?

9. Is the second death a physical death, or spiritual death?

10. If the wicked are burned up, literally, or just die a natural death in

the future world, as you teach, do not the righteous suffer more in this life than the wicked in eternity?

11. If physcial death will be everlasting punishment, as you teach, did not Jesus Christ suffer as great punishment as the greatest sinner, even a murderer, will ever have to suffer?

12. Many of the ancient Christians were burned at the stake. suffer everlasting punishment?

Did they

13. When this earth is burned up (II. Pet. 3:10) which will suffer the most physical pain, man or the brutes?

14. If, as you teach ("Millennial Dawn," Vol. V., pages 362-363), that the human family and the brutes have the same spirit, and their bodies a common origin, if the death of man be everlasting punishment, will not the death of the brute also be everlasting punishment?

15. Can that which does not exist suffer punishment?

16. If, as you teach, the wicked cease to exist, do they not, therefore, cease to be punished?

17. Since their punishment ceases, if they cease to exist, can it be everlasting punishment?

18. Is it any greater punishment to be annihilated for eternity than for a few years?

I leave the questions now with my good brother and see whether he will even undertake to answer them or not, and insist that he shall answer them in his first reply this evening, that I may have a chance to attend to what he may say about them in my final speech in the affirmative at this time. But I continue the affirmative argument.

Jude 4: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation; ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Jude 12-13: "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear; clouds they are without water, carried about of winds, trees whose fruit withereth without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever."

Here are wicked men described as most worthless, miserable and mischief-making. They feast without fear; every point in their description denotes continued existence; namely, "clouds without water, wandering stars, wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame, to whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever." Could any one except my distinguished opponent imagine all these conditions to belong to that which does not exist? This statement of Jude agrees with that of Christ. Matt. 25:30: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."