in the case of a European Power. I is to be congratulated on the two think that is asking far too much. If speeches which we have heard from the the Chinese Government are to be treated other side of the House. I wish, as a like a European Power they must behave member of the Conservative party, as a European Power. We know per- and as one professing Imperial views, fectly well that they have committed the to congratulate the House on having greatest outrage, and in a manner which two Radical Members able to make no European Power would think of for a speeches so full of useful knowledge moment. I refer to the fact that they and intelligence as the speeches which have absolutely ignored the sacred charac- have been delivered by the hon. Member ter of diplomatic envoys, and have, in a for Barnsley and the hon. Member for time of peace, allowed the Imperial forces East Bristol. I am sure that every hon. of the Chinese Government to unite with Member who listened to these speeches rebels in order to bombard the envoys of will agree with me in my estimate of friendly Powers. That is not behaving like them. They dealt with questions of a European Power, and it is quite impossible enormous interest to this House and the to treat a Government which behaves like country, and for my part I am very gratethat upon the same footing on which a ful to the hon. Gentlemen. I do not European Power would naturally be propose now to criticise the foreign policy treated. I think that the European of the Government in China. I am aware Powers are well advised to exact just and that we must wait for further informadue reparation for the wrong which they tion, but I will say this, that the Chinese have sustained. If the Chinese Govern- question is at this moment of infinitely ment expect to be treated in any other more importance to this country than the way they must behave differently. Before South African question, because the I sit down I might be allowed to say that South African question is, in my opinion, I hope to lay the Papers on the Table on practically settled. The Chinese quesMonday, but they are not, as I said last tion is of infinitely more importance than might, complete. We have not had time the miserable personalities on which a to arrange and publish a full Paper, but great part of last night and to-night I have no doubt the House will forgive have been absolutely wasted. I have that. With regard to the Anglo-German never known the time of the House Agreement, that will be laid on the Table more wasted than it was by the speeches together with the answers of the Powers delivered last night, and I am sure it is .as soon as the necessary leave from of more advantage to this House and to the foreign Powers concerned has the country that we should have subjects been obtained. That I look for in a few of real importance brought before us as days. we have had to-night. The noble Lord assured the House that the Government were protecting British interests, and challenged us to show any case in which the Government had failed to protect British interests. I am rather sorry that he made that challenge, because *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I think the noble Lord quite misunderstands my attitude on questions of this kind. I may be mistaken in my estimate of the correctness of my own views, but perhaps I see a little further ahead sometimes than the members of the Government, and I wish to prevent them from entering on courses which may have very serious results to this country. That is my view of the Concert of Europe. I do not uphold the so-called Concert because I am opposed to other Powers protecting their own interests. Very far from it. I object to the Concert because I believe it has no real existence, because I believe it cannot exist, and never has existed, and that, as in China, it has only led us into a position of enormous peril, where we and other Powers are day by day in danger of coming into collision. The House Viscount Cranborne. It being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed upon Monday next. Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of this day, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put. Adjourned accordingly at one minute after Twelve of the clock, till Monday next. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, 10th December, 1900. VISCOUNT MOUNTGARRET. Petition of Henry Edmund, Viscount Mountgarret, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland. Read and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House. EARLDOM OF NORFOLK. respecting the Regulations in force in SOUTH AFRICA. Proclamations issued by Field-Marshal TRADE REPORTS. I. Annual Series: No. 2540. Belgium CHINA No. 4 (1900). 543. Reports from Her Majesty's Minister in China respecting events at Peking. Presented (by Command) and ordered to lie on the Table. AUGMENTATION OF BENEFICES ACT, 1863. Return of proceedings under the Lord Chancellor's Augmentation Act, from August 15th, 1892, to December 6th, 1900. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 5.) Petition of Henry, Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Arundel, Earl of Surrey, Earl of Norfolk, Lord Maltravers, Lord Fitzalan of Clun and Oswaldestre, and Earl Marshall and Hereditary Marshal of England, Knight of the Most Honourable Order of the Garter, praying their Lordships that he may be permitted to appear and be beard before this House and before their Lordships' Committee for Privileges by his counsel and agents in opposition to the claim of Charles Botolph Joseph Lord Stourton to the dignity of Earl of Norfolk, and that he may be at liberty to crosswitnesses as the said examine such claimant may produce, and to lodge a printed case and to produce such evidence in contradiction of any evidence that may Treasury Minute, dated November be produced by the said claimant and also such evidence at will support the 17th, 1900, declaring that Mr. Alexander Petitioner's right and title to the said MacDonald, Commander of the Cruiser dignity, as the Petitioner may be advised "Viligant," under the Fishery Board for to be material for the protection of his Scotland, was appointed without a civil rights and interests, and that their Lord-service certificate through inadvertence ships will be pleased to allow the Peti- on the part of the head of his department. tioner reasonable time after the delivery of the case of the said claimant to prepare his case and evidence; read, and referred to the Committee for Privileges. RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. IRISH LAND COMMISSION. II. (Judicial Rents.) Return for the COMMERCIAL TRAVELLERS. Reports received from the Indian VOL. LXXXVIII. [FOURTH SERIES.] SUPERANNUATION. POST OFFICE TELEGRAPHS (ANGLO- Laid before the House (pursuant to FUTURE GOVERNMENT OF SOUTH THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, seeing the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies in his place, I wish to ask him a question, of which I have given him private notice, with regard to the future administration of P South Africa. It has been stated in another place that the administration of the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony will be vested in the High Commissioner for South Africa. The High Commissioner being at this present time Governor of Cape Colony, I wish to ask whether in the future arrangement of South Africa it is intended that her Majesty's High Commissioner shall continue to be Governor of Cape Colony, or whether the Government of that colony will be constituted independently of him. THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, I do not think the noble Earl has quite accurately interpreted what was said by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in another place. It is not quite accurate to say that the High Commissioner in South Africa will be the Administrator in the two new colonies, The noble Earl is, perhaps, aware that hitherto the Governor at the Cape has also been the High Commissioner of South Africa, and the commission so appointing him has applied not only to the High Commissioner but also to the Deputy Governor who might be appointed by him whenever he was absent from Cape Colony. The High Commissionership of South Africa and the Governorship of Cape Colony will no longer be in the hands of the same person--that is to say; Sir Alfred Milner, who has been appointed personally the High Commissioner of South Africa, is at the present moment also Governor at the Cape, but at present Lord Roberts holds the commission for the administration of the two new colonies which have been annexed to the Crown. As soon as Lord Roberts leaves South Africa, those powers will, by a dormant commission which Sir Alfred Milner now holds, devolve on Sir Alfred Milner, but he will not be Governor of the two new colonies until such time as Her Majesty has been pleased to appoint him to that post. When he has been appointed as Governor of the Transvaal, with a Lieutenant-Governor of the Orange River Colony under him, he will then, and only then, cease to be Governor of the Cape. When that may be depends, of course, upon circumstances, and I am not able to fix the date when that occurrence will take place, but it is certainly not intended that the office of High Commissioner of South Africa and that of Governor of Cape The Earl of Camperdown. Colony should be held by Sir Alfred Milner at one and the same time. TREATMENT OF INVALIDED COLONIAL SOLDIERS. rise to call the attention of Her Majesty's EARL CARRINGTON: My Lords, I Government to the fact that wounded been brought from South Africa to this their health, are being sent back to their country by the Government to recruit respective colonies as steerage passengers in mail steamers; and to ask whether some more suitable accommodation cannot and invalided colonial soldiers who have be provided for them. Early in October soldiers arrived in England from South last 170 wounded and invalided colonial soldiers arrived in England from South Africa, having been sent home-I am speaking under correction-in order to relieve the pressure on the military hospitals out there. They were men of all sorts and conditions graziers, mining agents, bank clerks, dentists, riding masters, and the sons of Government officials. On October 11th squatters, the Government sent back to Australia in the Royal Mail steamship “Ormuz," of the Orient line, ten of these wounded and invalided Colonial Volunteers. When they got on board they found that the been given reason to expect, and they accommodation was not what they had Temporary Loan Fund for Wounded and sent to me, as honorary secretary of the Invalided Colonial Soldiers in London, the following letter "R.M.S. 'Ormuz,' "October 13, 1900. "SIR, On the expiration of our furlough we reported at the Colonial depôt at Shorncliffe, and arranged to return to Australia. We were all distinctly led to understand that the War Office would arrange second class passages home for us, as the Canadians were receiving such. On our arrival at the ship we were met by a non-commissioned officer, who informed us, for the first time, that we were to travel steerage, thus depriving us of an class; in fact, one of us had at the office opportunity of arranging ourselves for second expressed his willingness to pay the difference, if it were needed, and was told that everything was arranged as he wished.' Many of enteric, and need special dieting. In England, us were invalided to England, mostly after through the magnificent hospitality of the public in this direction, we managed to obtain it; but here we have to eat food which is healthy and good for a strong man, but hardly suited for a weak stomach. There was no medical examination prior to our departure to see if we could manage the ordinary fare. third class, but as we enjoy all the privileges of the second saloon, with the use of the smokeroom and deck, we find no cause for complaint." Undoubtedly we shall feel this in the Red Sea. By cable to Gibraltar or Marseilles it could be arranged for the special dieting of us in the second saloon, our sleeping accommodation being quite comfortable. We hardly consider it right to be expected to diet in a way which is certainly not suitable after enteric fever." This letter was signed by a corporal and two troopers of the New South Wales Mounted Infantry, two men of the Western Australia Mounted Infantry, two men of the Victoria Mounted Rifles, two men of the Australian Horse, and one man of the Ceylon Mounted Rifles. As secretary of the Fund I at once telegraphed to Messrs. Anderson and Anderson, representing the Orient Company, as follows Three other Orient vessels have left since then with colonials, and have been personally inspected by Sergeant McDonald, of Kitchener's Horse, and honorary secretary of the Lord Mayor's Fund, who reported that everything had been done for the comfort of the men. The last contingent that went out left, I think, on Saturday. Amongst them was Sergeant Legg, who belongs to one of the best Australian families. I knew the family very well when I was Governor of New South Wales. Sergeant Legg was, Legg was, with Sergeant McDonald, presented to the Queen at Windsor Castle, and received Her Majesty's gracious thanks for the way he had fought for his country. He is one of six brothers, all of whom volunteered, and one of whom, I believe, has been killed. Though extremely unwell, he would have been sent back as a steerage "My Lord, We have telegraphed to the commander of the Ormuz' at Gibraltar that the colonial troopers on board the steamer, for whom third-class passage was ordered by the Admiralty, are to mess and rank as second-passenger had it not been for another class passengers. It will be necessary for the men to retain their third-class sleeping berths, as all the second saloon cabins are let. The difference between the third-class fare and the lowest second saloon fare is £17 3s., but, as we wish to treat the Colonial Volunteers in a liberal manner, we shall be happy to halve this amount, and to accept £8 10s. per man in settlement." The Orient Company have very generously supplied all the men who have gone back in their ships with second-class bedding in the third-class berths. I also received the following letter, signed by the ten men "On our arrival at Gibraltar we were welcomed with the pleasing news that the desired change had been effected with regard to our travelling, and we now wish to convey our thanks. After twelve months campaigning we naturally are not so fit as when we started, but owing to your very kind interest we will now have six weeks comfortable and enjoyable travelling to recruit." On 10th November I received a telegram from Sergeant Williams, of the Australian Horse, in which he said "On behalf of Australians on board Ortono' please accept my very warmest thanks. Being treated excellently.' One of the men of the New South Wales Mounted Rifles (O. A. Duffy) wrote "On board the 'Omrah' we are treated very well indeed. The sleeping accommodation is private fund, out of which he was provided with a separate cabin and other comforts. So much for the Orient Line. I then communicated with the Allan and Dominion Lines, and received a letter from the managers of the latter, in which they say- "We have pleasure in informing your Lordships that we have carried in our steamers recently several contingents of wounded and invalided men of the Royal Canadians from Liverpool to Quebec. We have made special provision for them, and have supplied them with superior third class accommodation, giving them, in most respects, second saloon privileges, and we are advised in each case that this arrangement has given perfect satisfaction." That is to say, third-class accommodation was provided for them by the Government, but through the generosity of the Dominion Line, they have been supplied with second-class accommodation. The Allan Line have shown similar generous treatment. They write "Although paying the lowest rate of passage money, we have placed the invalided Canadian soldiers in special compartments where they have been quite equal to the second-class passengers. We also gave instructions that they were to have cigarettes, tobacco, and a reasonable amount of malt liquor without charge. We assure your Lordship that we shall continue this treatment to all parties of returning Canadians who are entrusted to the Allan Line of conveyance." I thought it my duty to bring the subject before the House of Lords at the earliest opportunity, because I was perfectly certain that it would not give satisfaction to the House, any more than to the nation at large, to know that these gallant men were sent home, a distance of 12,500 miles, packed like herrings in a barrel, with steerage diet, while they were far from being in a strong state of health I would like to ask what would be said in Australia if, when these men arrived at Adelaide, Melbourne, or Sydney, the thousands of their fellow-countrymen assembled to welcome them, saw them crawl, under-fed and overcrowded, out of the steerage of one of the Royal Mail steamers. I submit that the amelioration of the conditions of their voyage should not have been left to private charity and the generosity of the steamship companies, but should have been undertaken by the Imperial Government, which has availed itself of their services. I believe this is simply and entirely a case of mismanagement, and I have a confident hope that the Government will put an end at once to this state of things. provided with a second-class passage. If these men, on account of their superior social position, are to be given a secondclass passage, the same reason would apply to the men of many other corps, such as the Imperial Yeomanry and the City Imperial Volunteers. There are men in the ranks of the Army of a superior social position, and it is impossible for anything to be taken into consideration except the rank of the men in the Army. The men, therefore, for whom the noble Earl has pleaded have been sent home in the class of rank to which they are entitled; and I do not see any reason for an alteration. *LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I must say that I am profoundly disappointed at the tone of the reply of the noble Lord to the question of the noble. Earl behind me. It does appear to me that something should be done when the War Office discover that there has been a failure to consider, what at all events our colonial troops themselves regard as their absolute needs in the matter of health I feel that we should not be doing our duty if we did not dissociate ourselves entirely from the view taken by the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War. The provision for these colonial soldiers ought not to be left to private charity. To look after these men is the duty of Her Majesty's Government, and if some care had not been taken of them the neglect would have amounted to a public scandal in the minds of the people of Australia. *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord RAGLAN): I am sorry to have to disagree with the noble Earl in his view of this question. The expression" steerage" is a somewhat unfortunate one, for I have to point out to the House that the men have a third class passage on board these steamers. Every man has a bunk in a cabin, and the dietary is plentiful and varied. I am informed that the third-class passage on these steamers is extremely comfortable. LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I These men have been brought home as regret that the answer of the noble Lord invalids from South Africa in order to was not more sympathetic. The noble relieve the pressure on the base hospitals Earl did not raise the point as to there and the convalescent homes in South being any objection to these men Africa. Wherever possible the men have travelling third class. He does not object been sent straight from South Africa to to their occupying third-class bunks, and their homes, but where this course was is quite willing to admit that the food not possible they have been brought to given to the third-class passengers in these England. The men are not really ships is admirably suited for men who are invalids; in far the greater majority in a strong state of health. He did not at of cases they have recovered their all assert that they did not receive sufficient health and strength, and if they food. What my noble friend contended have not entirely recovered they are, at least, far advanced towards convalescence, and therefore it is no great hardship to ask them to travel third-class. Where a man is considered to be in a delicate state of health and needing more attention and perhaps more luxury, he is Earl Carrington. for was that they should receive the particular food and comforts necessary for their weak state of health, because at the best they are but convalescents. They would not have received the special comforts and the special forms of food had it not been for the |