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to his sovereign for an advancement in the church. When once the measure was passed into a law, he should feel it to be his duty to impress upon the minds of his clergy the necessity of a cheerful acquiescence in the decision of their lordships, and also the necessity of an increased attention to their duties, the fulfilment of which constituted the strongest foundation of the church, whose bulwark was about to be shaken. But, as to the real foundation of the Protestant church, which was a branch of the Catholic church, as it was not laid by their lordships, so it could not be shaken by them. The clergy looked to that House with confidence for an affectionate support of the church; and so long as it continued to be a faithful instructress of the people, she was entitled to look to their lordships for an increase of the means of doing good, for the security of her property, and for the augmentation of the number of places of worship. Although he anticipated some struggles in store for the church, he was confident she would survive them all.

church. I also stated, that the only security which I could see, consisted in an union of the Catholic clergy with the state. The more I reflect upon the subject, the more do I become convinced of the danger of any other mode of proceeding. I think, my lords, that it is an axiom of our constitution, that no person ought to possess power in the state, who had not an interest in using his power for the public benefit. Now, I believe that the Catholic priests possess this power in a very high degree. Hitherto the Catholic priests have exercised an influence over the legislature through the medium of the electors only, but now we are going to give them a direct influence, which they cannot fail to have through Catholic members, owing to the power which the priesthood must possess over every sincere Roman Catho lie, according to the tenets of that religion. As to what has fallen from the noble duke at the head of the government, I confess he has started difficulties this night, regarding the possession of a veto, for which I was not prepared, and which I will freely The Marquis of Salisbury said:-My state I do not at present see the way to lords, I rise with the greatest reluctance, overcome; I only wish the noble duke had to address a few words to your lordships the kindness to state his reasons for negon the present occasion, and to explain lecting to adopt what I consider the best the grounds of the vote which I am about means of connecting the Roman Catholic to give on the present question. When I priesthood with the state; namely, by had the honour of moving the address in paying them-for I am clearly of opinion this House, at the commencement of the that they ought to be paid. The importsession, I was fully prepared to make great ant fact exists, that the Catholic priests and extensive alterations in our Protestant are about to obtain the exercise of great constitution, and to extend to the Roman political power, while every motive of hosCatholics the full privileges conferred by tility against the established church, that the present bill, it never, however, entered they could ever have had still remains in into my imagination, that the privileges full force; and it would be too much to conferred by this bill, were not to be ac- expect, that they would not endeavour to companied by full and valid securities for influence the Catholics against it. I have Our Protestant church. The present bill great respect for the abilities of the framers I cannot look upon as affording any such of this measure, but I do not think human securities. Yet, even with this opinion, I ingenuity could devise an oath calculated entertained considerable doubts as to the to compass all that is requisite, without course which it would be my duty to pur-compromising the legislative authority. sue; whilst, on one hand, I considered the imperfect securities offered by the bill, on the other hand, I was anxious to avoid, if possible the effect of once more disappointing the hopes which had been excited in the breasts of the Roman Catholics. When I last year had the honour of addressing your lordships on this subject, I stated, that I was ready to agree to any measure for the relief of the Roman Catholics, which should be attended with adequate securities for our Protestant

It will be recollected, that, a few years ago, above seventy members of the other House of parliament voted for a measure which went upon the principle, that the revenues of the church might be alienated and converted to public uses. Now, I will ask, if there was then so formidable a body of that opinion-if there were so many at that period prepared to vote in favour of an attack on the establishment I will beg leave to inquire, if this be not sufficient grounds for apprehending danger

from the passing of the measure? This is for in the declaration of one of its members, no imaginary vision of my own; for I am who said that he supported the measure justified in saying, that it has been the re- as the first step to the subversion of the corded opinion of every individual taking church? Am I to look for it in one of the a part in the debate upon the question, most eloquent speeches of a noble earl, that some security, such as I have referred who said, that if seventy Roman Catholic to, should be obtained, before concession members were admitted into parliament can be granted with safety. The names this session, they would in the next be for of Mr. Fox, of Mr. Canning, of lord Gren- upsetting the Protestant establishment? ville, and of a noble and learned lord now For my own part, I must believe that in his place (lord Plunkett) who often ad- your lordships, in passing this measure, vocated the measure in the other House, will be signing the death-warrant of the would be sufficient to countenance me in Protestant establishment in Ireland; and, holding that opinion. I will not trouble if it falls, it requires not much discern your lordships with any quotation; but, ment to perceive, that the downfal of the if that noble and learned lord entertained English establishment will soon follow, and this opinion, it is sufficient surely to au- that a revolution will ensue in this counthorise an humble individual like myself try, such as your lordships, can neither to speak in favour of securities. There is foresee the consequences nor the end of. one other authority to which I will advert I do not think that the evil is without a that of one of the greatest legislators remedy; but, unless I distrust the sinthe country ever possessed, and whose ad-cerity of the government, I must suppose vice, if taken, would have saved us from the present the only one they could bring the dilemma in which we are now placed. forward. With respect to it, I shall conThese words occur in almost the last speech fine myself to the way in which it will he ever spoke upon the subject. "My affect the property of the church, as it idea," said Mr. Pitt, "was, not to apply would lead to endless discussion, to enter tests to the religious tenets of the Catho- upon the various ways in which it (affects lics, but tests applicable to what was the it in a religious point of view. The consource and foundation of the evil, to ren- sideration of that I leave to the right der the priests, instead of making them reverend prelate, whose instructions I have the instruments of poisoning the minds of often received. I can assure you, my some sort lords, that, however objectionable the people, dependent in upon the government, and thus links, as might have considered the measure in it were, between the government and the many points, I would most willingly have people.' With these sentiments I en-waved them, had I conceived it to be a tirely coincide, and this I should consider measure that could be passed with safety. a wise course to adopt, and it should have It pains me greatly to make any interrupmy strenuous support. Ever since I tion of the confidence which I repose in began to take any part in politics, I have the authors of the measure, but I should professed the principles of Mr. Pitt, and have esteemed it a violation of a solemn considered him the star by whose guidance duty, had I not obeyed the feeling which 1 was to steer my way in public life. As it excited in my breast. I have, therefore, long as circumstances induced him to deemed myself bound to make these obforbear from advocating concession, Iservations to your lordships, and I beg to opposed it. I am now ready to support express my thanks for the patience with it on the terms which he would have pro- which they have been listened to. posed had he brought it forward; and I have no reason to think that he would have changed his mind, in consequence of any events that have since occurred. Am I to look for such a reason in the declaration of a Romish priest, that he would advocate the abridgment of the revenues of the established church, although not as a priest, yet as an Irishman? Am I to look for it in the votes of the other House,

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but I think he has made use of some observations at variance with some assertions which he made at the opening of the session. I must say, that I have heard the opening speech of the noble duke at the head of the government, with very great satisfaction. To me it is most satisfactory to find, that the government, having the best opportunities of judging of the state of Ireland, and the feeling of the country, have felt themselves called upon, in consideration of the state of affairs, and contrary to their former opinions, to bring forward the present measure. It is now argued, on the ground of expediency, that the state of Ireland absolutely requires this alteration of the laws. To me, connected closely with that country by many ties, the subject is one of the greatest interest, and I do most sincerely approve of the course that has been taken, as stated this evening. But it is not easy for any Irish proprietor to come forward without some degree of prejudice, and with that calmness and moderation so requisite for the proper discussion of the question; and, conscious of the fact, I am, therefore, disposed to view the measure rather in reference to this country than to that with which I am so intimately connected. I am, therefore, willing to leave Ireland for a moment out of consideration. Let us, then, suppose that country free, contented, and happy-with no vexatious and restrictive laws to repress her energies-let us suppose it the seat of wealth and of liberty, and turn our attention to England. My lords, we have Catholics in this country; but we do not know them by their indigence nor by their clamours, but by the proud names which they bear, by their wealth and high hereditary rank, and by the debt which is due to them from the state. It is impossible to read the history of this country and not to see that they have been excluded from their places in the legislature, by the most iniquitous means, and it is now attempted, by the very same means, to effect a continuance of their exclusion. It has been said, that the principles of the Catholic religion are inconsistent with our free constitution; but let those who make this assertion look to the founders of that constitution, and see if they are borne out in their opinion. The time of which Burnet is the historian speaks to the case. When Elizabeth established the Protestant church the majority of her privy

council were Catholics, and, when it was proposed to frame an oath for the Catholic peers, she rejected the advice, and said she had too much confidence in her Catholic subjects to adopt it. When England was threatened by a confederacy of Catholic Europe-when the most alarming invasion ever meditated against our shores was hourly expected-how did the Catholic subjects of queen Elizabeth act? They flocked to her standard-they applied to the lords-lieutenant of counties to be permitted to arm for the defence of the country-and they fitted out vessels at their own expense, to be sent out under the command of the lord high admiral; himself, I believe, a Roman Catholic. Such was the conduct of the Roman Catholics of that day: and how have they acted in our own? We have witnessed the termination-the glorious termination -of a great war. What jealousy, or apprehension, has been felt of the Roman Catholics in its progress? They have joined in our ranks, and fought side by side, and conquered, with their Protestant fellow-soldiers. But even granting that there was, in the time of Elizabeth, of James, or of William, just reason for excluding the Roman Catholics from parliament, it is incumbent upon those who urge the continuance of that exclusion to show, that the same cause still exists. Every man acknowledges that exclusive laws can only be justified by necessity, and by a necessity proportionate to their severity. In the course of what has fallen from some noble lords allusion has been made to the Coronation Oath. This is certainly a delicate topic for an individual like myself to touch upon; but I must say that, in the wording or the language of that oath, there is nothing which appears to me properly to bear the construction put upon it by some noble lords. The only part of the oath upon which any objection is raised, is that part which is considered as binding the king to maintain the Protestant religion as established by law in this country. For my own part, if a similar oath formed part of those which the members of this House are bound to take, and when a minister in whose judgment and honour, and honesty, I place confidence, comes forward with a bill which will have the effect of maintaining the Protestant establishment in Ireland, I think I should violate my oath if I did not support it. Much objection

has been made to this measure, on the ground of the number of petitions which have been presented from all parts of the country against it. I declare it as my belief, that the petitions which have come to your lordships' House do honour to the feelings of the people of England. They prove their love of the Protestant religion, the constitution, and the laws. But when it is considered, that it is by the vilest artifices that these petitions have been procured that the most inflammatory means have been resorted to, to make the people believe that these measures have a tendency to injure the constitution and the Protestant church-it must immediately be felt, that these petitions were founded on mistaken notions. But still I say, that the petitions furnish a strong argument in favour of these measures; for they prove that, so strong is the love of the people for their religion and constitution, that, even granting all the dangers which are held out by noble lords who are opposed to concession-even supposing that all the power and influence of the Roman Catholics should be used for the subversion of the Protestant religion-they would not weigh a feather in the scale against the fidelity and attachment of the whole people of England. My lords, I have now stated the reasons why, independently of considerations of expediency, I am disposed to support this bill; but when, in addition, I consider what has been so forcibly impressed by the noble duke at the head of the government, and so ably enforced by the noble marquis on this side of the House (Lansdown), it really does appear to me extraordinary, that any man should stand up in this House to oppose the measure; for what arguments can be used to uphold that opposition, except those which deeprooted prejudice supply? Those noble lords who have been in the habit of opposing these claims are now appealed to on the ground of consistency, to persevere in their opposition. Such arguments appear to me to be addressed to their weakness, and not to their judgments. They are built on the supposition, that it must be considered consistency in noble lords to vote systematically and uniformly on one side of a question; simply because they had voted so before, altogether disregarding any change of circumstances, and not reflecting that, while, on former occasions, the question was whether the VOL. XXI.

law should be altered or left as it was, at present it is whether the government is to be disturbed or measures of great national policy are to be effected?-whether the heads of the government are to be removed, or the country left in a state of agitation, under the management of those who, whatever may be their merits in other respects, are, in my estimation, totally incapable of holding the reins of government in this country? Having said thus much, I shall not trespass upon your lordships' time any further.

The Earl of Enniskillen said, that though he had great respect for the recommendation contained in his majesty's Speech, and though he had great respect for the noble duke to whom his majesty had intrusted the administration of the country, he could not give up his own opinion on this question out of respect to either. He had uniformly opposed emancipation on former occasions, as being destructive of the constitution, and ruinous to the church establishment of the coun-" try. He had heard no satisfactory reasons for the change which had taken place in the policy of the country. The Catholic Association had been as violent last year as it had been this. The power of the priests had been exerted at the elections for Cavan and Monaghan, as strongly as it was exerted at the election for Clare. Moreover, as he knew that the lower orders of Roman Catholics were entirely guided and governed by their priests, and as he knew that this bill made no provision for the priests, but trenched upon their consequence by depriving them of their titles, he could not see how the people of Ireland could be reconciled to it. Thinking that the bill would do no good to Ireland, he should remain firm to the opinion which he had always held upon this question, and should give it his strenuous opposition.

The cries of adjourn" became inces- › sant. In the midst of them

The Earl of Falmouth moved, that the debate be adjourned to to-morrow.

Lord Clifden.-What! adjourn the debate when it is barely one o'clock ?

The Duke of Atholl.-I am astonished at the motion of the noble earl. I have now been fifty years a member of this House, and I have sat here during important debates until three, five,, seven, and even eight o'clock in the morning; and shall we on a bill, on which the fate. F

The Earl of Eldon.-If noble lords think that we can finish this discussion at one sitting, they are mistaken. If we were to sit till ten to-morrow morning, the same motion for adjournment must be made then, as is made very properly now. Lord Tenterden.-The question for the consideration of the House, is one of the most important that ever came before your lordships. The question now is, whether a measure so deeply interesting to every Protestant in the empire should receive a full and fair discussion from minds not fatigued and exhausted, or a partial discussion from minds sinking under the fatigues which they have already undergone.

The Lord Chancellor then put the question, that the further consideration of this bill be adjourned till to-morrow. It was immediately carried in the affirmative, and the House adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, April 2.

of the empire is said to depend, adjourn | the improvement of the lands. The land, at one o'clock? [Hear, and cries of "Go in consequence, became impoverished, on."] when the tenant had no hope of obtaining a renewal of his lease. The tenure was, in fact, too short to induce any occupant to attend to the ultimate improvement of the lands. The sole object of the tenant, under the present system was, to take as much out of the lands as was possible, leaving them, at the end of the term, in a most impoverished state. The remedy he would propose was this-that a valuation should take place of the average sums which had been paid for the last twentyone years, in the shape of rents, fines, and fees, put together, and that another valuation should be instituted, which was the rack-rent of the lands under lease. This last valuation, however, was only for the purpose of subsequent reference, with respect to the sum the bishop had a right to claim-not in the shape of rent and fines ordinarily paid, under the present system, by the tenant, but as a compulsory rent, on the payment of which the tenant should be entitled to the extension of his lease to the full term of forty-two years. The new rent to bear the same proportion to the rack-rent, which the former rent did to the fines and other fees put together. He had no doubt that the present system materially tended to deteriorate the income of the bishops. It would be much better, that what they now received in the shape of fines precariously should be received annually. He had heard, indeed, of 60,0007. being received in one year by the archbishop of Cashel for renewal fines; but, at the same time, it was well understood, that the see had been losing 2,000l. a year for many years previous. By the system he would propose, there would be an additional security given to the tenant, as well as to the income of the bishop. The principle of the bill was nearly the same as that which he had introduced last year; but, in consequence of the suggestions which he had received, there was a clause introduced into this bill, "that all fines relating to Churchlands should be paid up before the bill should take effect as to these lands." He had also introduced a clause, by which it was stipulated, that nothing contained therein should interfere with any clause by which the tenant forfeited his lease; but if the tenant had so forfeited it, it would be in the power of the bishop to let the lands to another tenant. It was also

ECCLESIASTICAL CORPORATIONS IN IRELAND.] Mr. Stanley said, he had last year introduced a bill, relative to the leasing power of bishops and Ecclesiastical Corporations in Ireland, his object then being that the bill might be printed, and laid before the House. He had circulated it amongst the bishops, from whom he had received various communications on the subject; and he intended to embody many of their suggestions in the bill, which he was about to move for leave to bring in. The hon. member said, he was induced to undertake this subject, in consequence of the many defects attending the present system of granting bishops' leases. It must be obvious to any person, that the present law required revision, when it was considered that, by the law as it now stood, the tenant could not enjoy a possession of the land longer than twenty-one years. This system tended to deteriorate, not only the revenues of the church, but also the lands. It kept the bishops out of half the revenues to which, under an improved system, they would be entitled. On the other hand, the tenant, owing to the precarious and short tenure, felt no inclination to lay out capital on

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