MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE said, with regard to the article of copper, that no such sales as mentioned had taken place within the last three years. MR. CORRY thought that if the hon. Gentleman made inquiries he would find that he (Mr. Corry) was right. He could only further express the hope that the earnest attention of the First Lord would be directed to the three subjects -the rope, the boilers, and the cables and anchors-to which he had directed his observations. MR. MAGUIRE said, there could be no doubt that the great object of the Admiralty, both past and present, had been to economise fuel as much as possible. With that view, he would call their attention to the invention of a Mr. Prideaux, C.E., an ingenious gentleman in the City, by which, as was alleged, an economy of 10 per cent in the amount of fuel would be attained, smoke would be entirely done away with, and the temperature of the stoke-hole lowered to within four or five degrees of that of the after-cabins of a man-of-war. It had been tried by Captain Denman, and also by the commander of the Argus, with the greatest possible success; and no later than a fortnight since it was tested in the presence of three or four hon. Members of that House-one being the hon. Member for Hastings, another the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock, and the third the hon. Member for Northumberland; and he had been authorized by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock to state that anything more perfect or satisfactory he could not imagine than the apparatus in question. The smoke was effectually shut off in a moment and the temperature effectually lowered. For 15 years, Mr. Prideaux, the inventor, had appealed to the Government to give him fair play; and although it was true that there had been an objection to the invention formerly on the ground that the furnace-doors were too costly, the arrangements since then had been greatly improved, and the former price reduced to nearly one-third. He asked the Admiralty to deal fairly and liberally with improvements or inventions, and not to allow themselves to be prejudiced by old reports. MR. RYLANDS said, he had a Notice on the Paper to reduce the Vote for Naval Stores by £150,000, being about the amount of the increase of the Vote of 1870-71. He had no doubt that if the Government went into the market now they would have to pay a higher price for the articles required; but if they deferred purchasing for a few months they would be able to purchase at a considerable reduction. There was about the same amount of stores in stock in March last that there was in the March previous; and as there was no necessity for pushing on the building of iron and wooden vessels the Government might very well wait until they could purchase cheaper before going into the market, and therefore it was that he proposed the reduction of the Vote. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £778,510, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Naval Stores for building, repairing, and outfitting the Fleet and Coast Guard, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1873."—(Mr. Rylands.) MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE said, that the Votes for the Dockyards and for Stores depended upon each other, and therefore they could not reduce the one without reducing the other. Moreover, on a former occasion the Motion of the hon. Gentleman for the reduction of the Dockyard Vote found not a single supporter, and was ultimately withdrawn. The House therefore being committed to the year's programme of shipbuilding, how could it now refuse to vote the stores necessary ? Instead of requiring less money than usual this year, in the face of the high prices, he must tell hon. Members that the amount of the Vote would certainly be exceeded. Since the Estimates had been prepared, the prices of coal, iron, timber, copper-in fact, of almost every article, had increased with unparalleled rapidity. The Estimates for this Vote were framed in December last, when iron bars were £9 10s. a-ton; in April they had risen to £12 58. ; in June, to £14; and now they ranged from £15 to £17. Last year, copper was £86 a-ton; in April, it was £98; and now it was from £109 to £116. Coal also had very nearly doubled in price. In December, Welsh coal was 19s. delivered at Portsmouth; in June, it was 24s.; and now it was 29s. and 30s. This rise in prices had set aside all calculation, and had rendered it impossible to make any estimate, and under the circumstances it was impossible to assent to the reduction MR. CORRY asked whether the Ad of the Vote. In fact, only a few weeks | In reply to what the right hon. Gentleago he was in consultation with his man said about boilers, he might state Colleague as to the expediency of pre- that the Minotaur went out of the dockparing a Supplementary Estimate to meet yard after repairs, and, when the presthe enhanced prices. Looking, however, sure had been somewhat reduced, she to the very great uncertainty of prices performed the measured mile at the rate -to the impossibility of saying what of 11 knots with ease, which was not a they might reach in the course of the bad performance. Fresh boilers were autumn, it was thought better to post- being made for her; and having conpone any such application till the be- sulted the engineer, he could say that ginning of next Session; but if present the supply of boilers in stock and in prices continued, it was certain there course of manufacture was sufficient. It must be a large excess of expenditure was not desirable to keep too many over the amount he now asked for. The boilers in stock, because they deteriormain increase of the Vote, as compared ated; but it could not be said the queswith last year, was due to timber. We tion had been neglected when it was had been drawing on our stock of tim- considered, that the Vote for making ber for some years, and the time had boilers by contract was £93,000 last year now come when the stock was so far and £20,000 this. reduced that it was necessary to purchase in proportion to the average ex-miralty intended to re-commission ships penditure. One word as to what had on foreign stations? That was the most been said by the hon. Member for Cork. serious question of all. The furnace which had been alluded to was a very ingenious, but complicated and costly invention. It was, therefore, concluded at that time that it was not desirable to adopt the invention. He understood that its cost was now reduced; but whether it was possible to adopt it now he could not say, but would institute inquiries with a view to settle the point. Passing over the historical matters in the speech of the right hon. Member opposite (Mr. Corry), he would admit that there were complaints a short time ago about the chain cables that were being supplied under contract. The contract was put an end to, and fresh tenders invited. He might add that the contractor who had failed to perform his contract was the selection of the right hon. Gentleman. The Admiralty test was so perfect that it was believed no bad cables had been received. There were no general complaints about rope; but during the last few months there had been two complaints. One came from the Cape, in respect of rope manufactured in 1861, so that it was difficult to ascertain what was the cause of the defect. The other came from the Flying Squadron, and it was believed the rope was made of yarn which was not sufficiently seasoned. At Devonport, the manufacture of yarn had not kept pace with that of rope, and in a few weeks fresh machinery would be set up to increase the manufacture of yarn, so that 18 months' supply might be kept in store. MR. GOSCHEN said, he did not understand that there was once a rule never to re-commission ships, and that there had since been a practice always to re-commission ships. For instance, he believed it had always been held that gunboats might with advantage be re-commissioned on foreign stations. As to what would be done in future, a great deal must depend upon the ships themselves, and the reports of engineers as to their condition and that of their boilers. A ship never was re-commissioned until she had been fully reported upon; and such reports would be made more searching than before, for the reports of engineers had, in some instances, been found to be very incorrect. It was not likely that an iron-clad would again remain six years on a station. It would be premature now to say what would be done three years hence; it was more probable that the right hon. Gentleman himself would have to consider whether he would re-commission the ships which had lately gone out; but he (Mr. Goschen) did not think any large ironclad would remain out six years. MR. CANDLISH said, that for once there was a proposal to reduce expenditure for which he could not vote. If the Motion for a reduction were agreed to, the expenditure would be greater in the future on account of the increased price at which the material would be purchased. He thought, however, that nothing should be pressed forward but work that was urgent; for it was probable that before long they would have the ebb of the tide as to prices of which they were now having the flow. He therefore trusted the Motion would be withdrawn. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £459,116, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Steam Machinery and Ships building by Contract, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1873." CAPTAIN BEAUMONT called the attention of the Committee to the experiments recently made against the turret of the Glatton. Most exhaustive and conclusive experiments had been carried on at Shoeburyness, with the view of testing the best form and shape to give iron for the purpose of defence; and a most satisfactory result had been obtained from the experiments. The simple point was this-that the whole object of the experiments was to ascertain whether the revolving gear would or would not resist the impact of the shot, and upon that point the trial afforded no conclusive evidence, for the reason that the turret had been struck in a line with the axle, and that therefore the revolving gear could not be affected. All the artillery and engineer officers with whom he had conversed were agreed in the opinion that the trial ought to have been carried further, in order to test thoroughly the protection afforded by the glacis to the turret! and he certainly regretted that, in order perhaps to allow hon. Gentlemen to catch the train to London, another shot was not directed against the Glatton. He earnestly hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would take another opportunity of firing a few more shots at the Glatton, so that the vexed question to which he had referred might be satisfactorily set at rest. MR. GOSCHEN said, that in accordance with the arrangement already announced, he must now move to report Progress. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."(Mr. Goschen.) SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE protested against the Motion being now made, seeing that the Committee were ready and anxious to go on with the Votes. MR. RYLANDS remarked upon the large number of Votes that still had to be taken in Supply, and said, if Progress were reported it would be impossible to guess when Supply would be taken again; certainly it would be upon some very inconvenient occasion, when hon. Gentlemen would not be able adequately to discuss them. Since Monday had been given to the Government entirely for Supply, it would be most unwise to report Progress as early as half-past 10. They had better go on and get through the Army and Navy Estimates that night. MR. SAMUDA was also of the opinion that it would be better to go on with the Votes. He thought the point raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman as to the experiments on the Glatton need not detain them long. For his own part, the trial had perfectly satisfied him. No one supposed that the revolving gear of the turret was absolutely, and under all circumstances, beyond the danger of being deranged by a shot; but the experiments had proved the immense resisting power of the protection; and in the event of the gear being deranged, arrangements were always, he believed, made for revolving the gun by means of hand power. MR. GLADSTONE said, it was the usual practice of the House to allow the Government, on a Government night, to arrange as to the time to be devoted to different subjects. Moreover, in the present case, the Government had absolutely bound themselves to a number of hon. Gentlemen that other Business should be taken at the hour they had reached, and he therefore hoped the House would not waste what remained of that evening. MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK thought the time at the disposal of the Government ought first to be given to the consideration of the Votes in Supply, which the House, according to the Constitution, had a right to discuss at a period of the Session when they could assemble in full numbers. He had never known Supply put off till so late a period in order to enable the Government to proceed with measures dictated by their matter, and unless something was done it would be quite impossible ever to close the Session. They had been for seven hours engaged on one topic without having agreed to a single Vote; and the other Business of the House might fairly be gone on with now. the time of Lord Palmerston, and that if he had been, he would have known that that noble Lord consulted Parliamentary precedent and would never have brought on Votes in Supply at this period of the Session. own political exigencies. He had a Motion on the Paper relating to the Civil Service Estimates which he should never be able to bring on, because the Prime Minister gave the precedence to measures which might give him a little popularity, such as a miserable shred or patch of a Public Health Bill or a MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK said, Licensing Bill. The right hon. Gentle- his hon. Friend the Member for Chipman was in favour of personal govern-penham had not been in Parliament in ment by himself; but he was beginning to find out that he could not command hon. Members even on his own side of the House. It was one of the happiest moments of his (Mr. C. Bentinck's) life when the hon. Member for Warrington, about a fortnight ago, asked him to help him to stand up for the independence of the House of Commons; and he gladly accepted that hon. Member as a convert to the great constitutional cause. He was therefore delighted on the present occasion to hold out to that hon. Member the hand of a political brother, and to support his protest against now reporting Progress. The Prime Minister had called upon them on Friday in a most un-Parliamentary manner to sit on Saturday. He himself challenged that proceeding, but the Speaker decided that the Sitting was rightly called, although there was no precedent for it. ["Question!"] Hon. Members below the gangway who cried "Question" pretended to be independent Members. MR. A. JOHNSTON: I rise to Order. I wish to know whether it is Parliamentary to say that hon. Gentlemen pretend to be independent? THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Whitehaven will see that the word conveys an imputation which may be offensive to hon. Members. MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK would, then, substitute "professed to be independent Members." He maintained that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had done more than anyone in that House to abrogate the rights of private Members. If any Saturday Sittings were called, they ought to be devoted to the consideration of the Estimates, and Progress ought not now to be reported without a distinct assurance from the Government that Supply would be resumed at the earliest possible opportunity. MR. GOLDNEY thought at that period of the year they ought to accept the Government as the best judges in that SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE thought the course pursued that evening was not such as was calculated to bring the Business of the Session to a speedy termination. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty had taunted them with occupying so much time in discussing the Navy Estimates this year; but it must be remembered that the system at the Admiralty had been reorganized, and that questions of great national importance had required consideration. He protested against the progress of those Estimates being interrupted as proposed, when they might be concluded that evening, and contended that it was impossible they could be satisfactorily discussed by the daily waning Members of the House. Question put, and agreed to. Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock; Two of the clock. MILITARY FORCES LOCALISATION Debate on Amendment proposed to MR. ILLINGWORTH, in continua- | sent proposals, like many other great tion, said he objected to the measure, schemes of military outlay, might prove because it proposed a large outlay in a delusion and a snare. It was said that addition to the considerable military ex- we should be ready to back up our opipenditure already sanctioned, and would nions, if necessary, by physical force. enable a sum of three and a half millions That, however, should not be our role. of money to be raised over which Parlia- Duelling was put down by a combination ment would have no control. Moreover, between a few wise and prudent men; even if the scheme embodied in it were and England, with its high civilization a good one, it would lose nothing by and great professions of Christianity being postponed until next Session, while should take the lead in putting down the the country would be able to form an duels of nations. He thought that with opinion with respect to it during the the successful example just about being Recess. A large portion of the expenses carried out between ourselves and Ameunder the Bill would come from the rica, we should endeavour to make Inpockets of the industrial classes, who ternational Arbitration the rule, and not had no apprehensions of danger and no the exception, and he called on the Gowish to meddle with the affairs of our vernment, by postponing this Bill, to neighbours, and he therefore protested give the country further time for conboth against its being borne by them in sidering whether they would incur this such large proportion, and against such large outlay. He was certain the intean expenditure, when taxation already rests of the country would not suffer pressed so heavily upon the industry of from the delay. the country. If, therefore, this outlay were considered necessary, let it be paid by those who really wished for it. He objected also to the Bill for its intermixture of military with the civil population, feeling sure that the latter would thereby suffer. He did not pretend to be an authority on this subject, but his opinions had been gathered from Blue Books and official documents, which supported him in his strong repugnance to the measure. Barracks were, he believed, a nuisance wherever they were found. In our present relations with foreign Powers, was it necessary to foster our military system, and familiarize our population with it in the way now proposed? The calamity of the Continental States was their over-grown military system, and we should denounce that system instead of humbly copying it. Considering our well-nigh impregnable position and our Navy, and considering, also, the very subordinate position we should hereafter play in Continental quarrels, we should adopt a policy of non-intervention, and, while giving our advice, should preface it by stating candidly that we did not intend to fight. He could not understand how it was that a larger military expenditure was pro-pation, because it might be turned into posed by an economical Government than by a Government which made no such professions. No doubt, the Government hoped in the end to secure for us greater economy; but it was just possible they might be mistaken, and that their pre MR. TREVELYAN said, the evil prophecies of some persons upon the subject under discussion had failed in any way to be realized. He thought the opponents of the Bill had failed to show any connection between it and the evils they deprecated; and he denied that the measure was inconsistent with economy, morality, or the establishment of a sound military system. The object desired by many of his hon. Friends around him was that the country should be defended with a small number of men under the colours, and with a large number of men in the Reserves; and in doing so they seemed to wish to have the best part of the Prussian system without a plan of conscription. That was the scheme he had advocated by letters in The Times in 1870. Men, however, could not be enlisted for the short period of three years with a prospect of returning to citizen life, as long as they were liable to be sent to an unhealthy climate like India for an indefinite period. The Government, moreover, were deterred from facing the difficulty involved in this matter by those who told them that it would be dangerous to have a permanent Indian army of occu a Prætorian Guard. Their establishment was 192,000, and the usual number of recruits was 10 per cent on the establishment, or 19,000 per annum. That was on 12 years' service. Last year they got 22,000; but as the service was |