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ago as 1863, Sir Charles Trevelyan | were surely those who should be consaidsulted, and he would appeal to three successive Finance Ministers. Sir Charles

"Has the Government yet to learn that it is

beyond their power to furnish a proper industrial outfit for such a country as India? The limits have already been passed when they can exercise an effective control, and with regard to works carried out directly by the State there was certain to be careless and wasteful mismanagement through an inattention to details."

Were such warnings as those to be disregarded? They were threatened with an expenditure of £30,000,000 upon State railways, and by whom would the money be administered? It would be administered by a department which allowed a vast outlay to be made on barracks, some of which, as soon as they were built, tumbled down, and others were so faulty that they were pronounced useless. The expenditure of the money would be watched over by a department whose accounts were, by its own confession, in inextricable confusion. Mr. John Strachey, the moving spirit of the Department, admitted that the accounts were not kept in such a way as to enable an intelligent person to ascertain whether works called reproductive were really so. It could not be told whether the money voted for them was actually spent in them. The Under Secretary had said that the effect of the Amendment would be to repeal the income tax in India; but that was not so; it would only serve to draw attention to the subject. The great truth to be remembered in our rule of India was that we governed her too expensively. She was a poor country; we often forgot how poor she was. It was a country in which labourers were paid at the rate of 4d. a-day, and land let for 4s. an acre. This was the country that we were saddling with all the waste and expenditure inseparable from a system of State subsidies. Railways and other public works might be extremely useful in themselves; but if they were carried out on too costly a scale, if there was no effective supervision, and if there was that careless and wasteful management through inattention to details which Sir Charles Trevelyan spoke of, the most useful works might become extremely unprofitable. The Under Secretary had quoted a native paper-The Shóm Prakash-and General Barrow in favour of the tax; but officials connected with the Finance Department

Trevelyan left office rather than bear the responsibility of levying it. Mr. Laing said there was no worse or more obnoxious impost; that it was unsuited to the Oriental mind; that it exercised a demoralizing influence, and that for every rupee it yielded at least two rupees were taken by extortion and corruption from the people. Mr. Massey condemned the tax even more strongly, saying that the people looked upon it with dread, and regarded it as a great machine kept in reserve for the purpose of extorting money; and he added that no power on earth should induce him to continue Finance Minister in India with the duty of levying the income tax as an ordinary source of revenue. Except Sir Richard Temple, no Finance Minister could be quoted on the other side. According to the Lieutenant Governor of Bengal, it fell most heavily on the poor ryots and small cultivators, some of whom, spite of the antipathy of Hindoos to migration, threatened to migrate to avoid it. Mr. C. H. Campbell, the Lieutenant Governor's brother, collector in the district round Bengal, stated that no measure had ever produced so deep a dislike to English rule; and Mr. Ingles, speaking in the Legislative Council of Calcutta, said that though only one in 300 was legally liable to pay it, at least half the 300 were exposed to annoyance and pressure when the preliminary lists were made out; at least 20, too, being improperly assessed for one legally liable. The Lieutenant Governor, on examining a host of officials, found this opinion unanimously confirmed. Mr. Robinson, another member of the Legislative Council, had also spoken of the sullen discontent which the tax had produced throughout the Empire. After hearing these opinions the House would come to the conclusion that the Government were in a dilemma, because either their resources were at present so severely strained that it was absolutely necessary for them to maintain the income tax with all its disadvantages in order to obtain £500,000, or else the finances of India were in the prosperous condition represented by the Under Secretary and the tax might be dispensed with. But in the face of the official warnings he had mentioned, such

a tax would not be maintained if the Government could do without it, especially as Lord Mayo, who was no theorist or alarmist, but distinguished for his common sense, and, as proved by his untimely end, was courageous to a fault, had pointed out that the increase of taxation had produced a political danger the magnitude of which could not be over-estimated.

He himself believed the tax could this year be easily dispensed with-—namely, by introducing a different system of government, checking the expenditure on public works, and revising the military expenditure. Not only could the £500,000 be thus saved, but the salt duty and other taxes which pressed hard on the people might be reduced. As to public works, private enterprize was extinguished, when a little pressure would effect a guarantee or State aid; but English capital went freely into every quarter of the world, including hazardous speculations like American mines, and it was a reproach

soon become of far greater importance. The growth of local taxation there was less visible than that of Imperial, and was, in consequence, a more insidious evil.

And it being ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Debate was adjourned till this day.

The House suspended its Sitting at Seven of the clock.

The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.

INTOXICATING LIQUOR (LICENSING)
BILL. (Lords)-[BILL 288.]

(Mr. Secretary Bruce.)

CONSIDERATION.

Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now taken into Con

sideration."-(Mr. Secretary Bruce.)

MR. CHARLEY moved the adjournment of the debate, on the ground that the Bill with its Amendments had only been printed an hour ago and just placed in the hands of Members. When the Bill first came down from the Lords it contained 34 pages; it now contained 49. It then consisted of 62 clauses, which were now increased to 87. Under these circumstances, he thought that they could not go on with the discussion upon the Bill satisfactorily, and this was the ground upon which he moved the adjournment of the debate.

MR. CAWLEY seconded the Motion.

to Indian administration to assert that it would not go to India. When a deputation applied for a guarantee or for expenditure on a public work they should be invited, if they believed it would be profitable, themselves to undertake the enterprize. What India required above all things at the present moment was rest. She was worried by constant proposals for new taxation; and the rest of which she stood in need nothing would be so likely so secure her as a firm resolution that there should be no more guarantees, and that for some time at least no public works should be constructed except from any surplus which might be saved out of ordinary revenue. The next subject to which he wished to refer was the decentralization scheme of the Government, which would throw several charges which had hitherto been Imperial on the Provincial Governments. A fixed sum was in the first in-proceeded with now. He trusted, howstance to be voted from Imperial funds for those charges; but the sum was at the outset confessedly inadequate to meet them, and the charges were certain to increase. The deficiency, therefore, would have to be met by a constant augmentation in provincial taxation. Now, we were beginning to recognize the fact that the growth of local taxation in our own country was one of the most serious questions which could engage our attention; but local taxation in India would

MR. F. S. POWELL said, that he had put a Question at 2 o'clock to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bruce), and from what then took place he thought that the general feeling of the House was that the consideration of the Bill should be

ever, that if there should be any serious miscarriage on the Report the Home Secretary would not object to the re-committal of the Bill on the third reading, so that the miscarriage might be amended. He therefore thought they ought to go on with the debate.

MR. STRAIGHT was of opinion that they ought to go on with the Bill, as there were very few points now about which any great difference of opinion existed.

MR. CAWLEY said, he had seconded | had undergone large alterations and exthe Motion for the adjournment of the tension. It had just been reported, and debate because he thought that by doing the Government had proposed to go on so, and taking the discussion to-morrow, with it immediately, and before it was they would facilitate the progress of the possible, perhaps, for Members to exmeasure. He could not understand how amine it sufficiently. Having heard the hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. S. Powell) several Members express a difficulty in could say that the feeling of the House regard to going on to-night, and being was that they should then proceed with at the same time aware that the feeling the Bill, seeing that it was only about of the House was against any delay, he five minutes since it was placed in their thought it would not be altogether just hands in its amended form. He thought for the mere majority to decide to go on. if the Bill were taken the first thing to- Members who desired it ought to have morrow, the progress of the measure further time to examine the Bill, and the would be expedited instead of delayed, present stage ought not to be taken unbecause to go on with it then would only less the House were unanimous. In the be to invite Amendments to be brought circumstances he thought the best course forward on the third reading. would be to fix the Bill for 12 o'clock to-morrow, but on the understanding that after the Report the third reading would then be taken. Of course, the Appropriation Bill would come on first. Motion agreed to.

MR. WATNEY reminded hon. Members that a great deal of time had already been spent on the Bill, and thought there was no reason to complain of the want of opportunity for settling Amend

ments.

MR. F. S. POWELL rose to explain, and said that upon consulting with several Members he found that there was a strong feeling to proceed with the Bill forthwith.

MR. COLLINS said, the position of the House every day became worse. There were very few Members present to-night, and there would be still fewer to-morrow at noon. He was, therefore, in favour of going on.

MR. RUSSELL GURNEY said, it would be impossible to go on with the Bill. It had been understood that it would be printed at 12 o'clock; but it had not been printed until 7 or 8 o'clock, and there would be no time, if they proceeded with the measure, to see the effect of the Amendments.

MR. LOCKE was at a loss to understand why there should be any strong desire for making alteration in the clauses which had been passed and been added to the Bill, seeing that there had been sufficient opportunity for considering them on the previous night.

MR. GLADSTONE said, that having listened to the debate, he had come to a conclusion which he thought would meet the case, although he believed it would not meet with the consent of the majority of the House. The state of the case was this-Here was a Bill of great importance. It had been discussed with ability, with a great expenditure of time, and in very minute detail in Committee, and it

Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS.
COMMITTEE. ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Order read, for resuming Adjourned
Debate on Question [6th August],
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair" (for Committee on East India
Revenue Accounts)."

Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

MR. FAWCETT, in continuing his speech, said, he entirely agreed with one part of the speech of the Under Secretary for India. That hon. Gentleman had expressed in forcible language his opinion of the great services which Dr. Hooker had rendered to India, and that House could not do better than recognize those services. He (Mr. Fawcett) further thought that the Government would only have pursued a course which was due to the House of Commons if they had offered hon. Members an opportunity of expressing their opinion as to his services rendered not only to India but to England also. As to extravagance, it was the same with individuals as with Governments; when there was absurd extravagance in large matters there was equally absurd economy in small details. Royal entertainments might be given in this country at the expense of the Indian people, and £155,000 might be expended

country had been disposed of. We had
been taunted with the fact that Indian
affairs were better understood in Ger-
many than in this country, and he was
afraid that there was much truth in the
assertion. In his opinion, the loss of
India would be the greatest dishonour
that could befall this country, that it
would be fatal to our prestige, and the
greatest misfortune that could happen to
the people in India.
Fifteen years ago
the Queen issued a Proclamation, which
occasioned one universal feeling of in-
terest throughout India, Her Majesty
having therein said-

"We hold ourselves bound to the natives of

our Indian territory by the same obligations which bind us to our other subjects, and by the blessing of Almighty God those obligations we will faithfully and conscientiously fulfil."

to build a country house for a local Go- | He intended to persevere in what he had vernor; and this could be done by a undertaken with regard to this question, Government which, as if waking from a and he trusted that he had cleared himdream, said that we must be economical. self from the reproach that he was afraid It was scarcely necessary for him to ob- to speak his mind in the House of Comserve that the particular saving which mons. It was not his fault that he had had been adopted had led to a keen been obliged to utter his sentiments besense of injustice among the people of fore a thin and exhausted House on the India. A few years since, in order to 6th of August; the fault rested with the enable the natives of India to compete Government, who had determined not to in this country in the Indian Civil Service bring in the Indian Budget until every Examinations, scholarships were estab-important matter connected with this lished of £200 each, which had enabled many most distinguished natives of India to obtain high positions in the Indian Civil Service. Those scholarships had now been abolished, and the result was that a net saving of one-fifth the interest on the sum expended in erecting a local Governor's palace had been effected, greatly to the disgust of the Indian people. The promise which had been made to give annually a certain number of natives direct appointments in the service had been allowed to become a dead letter. He earnestly entreated the House of Commons and the country not to delude themselves with the belief that such things as these were not commented upon and noticed by the people of India. In that country millions of human beings felt that they had been unjustly dealt with, and a spirit was rising which it Those pledges had never since been would take all our wisdom and states- carried out. A large and unnecessary manship to allay. He was aware that it expenditure was still carried on withwas a somewhat thankless task to bring out any check or hindrance-a state of a subject such as this before that House. things which produced a wide feeling of The subject was a great one, and it re-discontent and a condition of political quired the labour of years to obtain anything like an adequate knowledge of it. For some years past he had devoted all his spare time to the study of the subject, and yet the only result of his endeavours to bring it under the notice of the House had been to excite the Under Secretary for India and to subject himself to Ministerial rebukes. But no feeling of irritation on the part of the Under Secretary for India-no Ministerial rebukes-could be of the smallest consequence to him compared to the importance of the subject itself and with the duty he felt incumbent on him to do all that lay in his power to improve the position of the people of India. His experience in that House had taught him this lesson-that when a Minister was very angry it was but a clear invitation for the offending party to persevere in the course that provoked that feeling.

dangers, the magnitude of which could not be over-estimated. The hon. Gentleman concluded by thanking the House for the patience with which they had heard him.

MR. W. M. TORRENS rose to second the Motion of his hon. Friend in compliance with his desire that he should do so, though he did not affect to entertain the same convictions of the pre-eminent mischief of the income tax, or the same hopes of the benefit that would accrue from its abolition. With recent mitigations and exemptions this obnoxious impost, it was calculated, would yield more than £500,000; and he could not but ask himself the question, would the alleviation of fiscal burdens to that extent appreciably tend to lighten the springs of Indian industry, or to allay social and political discontent? He wished to state, without exaggeration on

the one hand, and without extenuation | expenditure. What he could venture to on the other, the true relations finan- do, within the bounds of his own discrecially existing between Parliament and tion, he did with promptitude and sucthe people of India. Fourteen years cess; and for reductions on a wider scale ago, Parliament had advised Her Ma- he sent home not merely one or two disjesty to assume the responsibilities of tinct schemes of retrenchment, but no executive rule in Southern Asia. They less than four separate plans for the had pledged themselves in the most purpose; all of which, on one pretence or solemn manner-not by specious words another, were negatived by the India merely spoken in debate, or by Resolu- Office. After taking counsel with Sir tions that might be neglected or for- Henry Durand and Sir William Mansgotten-but by the solemn terms of a field, and many of the chief officers in statute, that every year the account of subordinate command, the late Viceroy public receipts and disbursements for recommended that fewer English regiGovernment purposes in India should be ments should be kept in India, and that laid upon the Table, together with a full many native regiments should be disstatement concerning the moral and banded. Sir William Mansfield did not material condition of that vast depen- hesitate to place on record his opinion, dency. But was the bundle of unex- when holding the office of Commanderplained facts, and loose Estimates, flung in-Chief, that the Army was greatly down at random by Government, and over-officered, and that, consequently, summarized rather than explained by reduction might, without compromising the Under Secretary of State in an its efficiency, be made in the staff. But empty House on the 6th August, a when Lord Mayo recommended economy faithful or substantial compliance with which would have had the effect of rethat mandatory law? He was not about ducing materially the military patronage to criticize the speech of his hon. Friend of the India Office and the Horse Guards, (Mr. Grant Duff.) It was no doubt his his advice was set at nought; and the duty to make the best case he could for actual figures in the public accounts for the Administration he served. But if, 1871, confess an Army expenditure of with all his ability and assiduity, what upwards of £16,000,000. Of four years they had heard that day was the best talk about economy that was the sum. that could be said for the financial con- The Secretary of State had denounced it dition of India, how unsatisfactory was as unnecessary; the Governor General that condition, and how imperative was had deplored it as excessive, and had the duty of Parliament to ponder deeply tried hard to get leave to cut it down. its immediate causes and imminent con- But there it stood unlopped of any masequences; not for the sake of India terial branch or bough overshadowing only, but of England likewise. When the industrious and peaceful capabilithe present Government came into office ties of the land. When the Company the Duke of Argyll inaugurated his ad- bore rule, the annual cost of the Army ministration of the Department by in- was no more than £12,750,000. With diting an elaborate despatch, in which he the Mutiny came a period of exceplaid it down broadly that the military tional increase; but in 1862 the normal expenditure had become excessive; that condition of things as regarded expense the financial burdens it entailed were had been resumed, and the charge was incompatible with the public welfare; brought within the amount of £13,000,000 and that reductions to the extent of a-year. Peace had prevailed ever since £1,600,000 ought to be forthwith begun. then, yet here we had the actual outlay Had his Grace enforced his own behests, on bayonets and sabres last year, or had he not suffered the efforts made £16,074,000. There was, indeed, a by the late Viceroy to comply with them promise in the current Estimates of a to be systematically frustrated and foiled, reduction of £250,000; but a similar there would have been no deficits to be promise had been held forth for the made good and no pretence therefore for year ending in May, 1871, which had an income tax. But, unfortunately, this not been realized; and the unreliability had not been done. Lord Mayo-as the of Indian Estimates was too notorious to published despatches of 1869 and 1870 allow them to reckon with any confidence proved-was even more anxious than the of the hope now held out being realized. Secretary of State to cut down excessive He (Mr. Torrens) had heard with asto

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