that question to be decided by those who | Friend the Member for Carlisle brought were elected by and were conversant forward. If they did not concede to the with the wants of the public; and if inhabitants some control over this matter that principle were applicable to hours of licensing, they would be obliged to it was still more applicable to the grant-resort to that measure. He felt convinced ing of licenses. The power which he that the country would be disappointed proposed to give the people was a very if they passed this Bill without giving small one; and he could not conceive some control to the ratepayers, and he why the elected representatives of the regretted that the Government had not people should not be associated with introduced some clauses for that purpose, the justices in this matter. His right and also for continuing the suspensory hon. Friend had admitted that the num- power of last Session. ber of magistrates who attended the licensing courts was small, and that among them were very often to be found magistrates influenced by carelessness, indifference, and jobbery; and when a Secretary of State said that, it appeared to him (Sir Robert Anstruther) that it was a strong argument in favour of his proposition. If he found any support he should certainly take the sense of the Committee upon it.

MR. BRUCE said, that his hon. Friend had said with great truth that this was the backbone of the Bill which he (Sir Robert Anstruther) had introduced into the House; and he would therefore admit that it was hardly proper to discuss in Committee on this Bill another Bill which was inconsistent with its essential principle. His hon. Friend proposed that the body which was to exercise the licensing authority should be composed one-half of persons elected by the ratepayers. He (Mr. Bruce) did not say that in all cases it would be bad, but he thought that on the whole it would be a dangerous principle to admit. In the borough with which he was connected, out of 60 public-houses, no less than 50 were in the possession of one brewer. Let them conceive the influence which would be exerted for the purpose of having on the licensing authority members who were in the interest of that brewer. This proposal would lead to constant struggles between those who were in favour of reducing the publichouses and those who were not, and he therefore could not accept it.

MR. B. SAMUELSON said, he felt that the proposal of his hon. Friend was in conformity with the traditions of local government in this country. There was a strong feeling in many parts of the country in its favour, and unless some control was given to the inhabitants of the various districts they would have year after year the Bill of his hon.

VOL. CCXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

Amendment proposed,

In page 15, line 14, to leave out from the words 16, inclusive, in order to insert the words “and "a grant of," to the word "Committee," in line boroughs the licensing authority shall be composed of not less than three or more than six justices as may be determined by a Secretary of State, such justices to be appointed by the justices with whom shall be associated for all purposes of having jurisdiction therein from among themselves,

a licensing authority a like number of ratepayers, who shall be elected for that purpose by the ratepayers in each borough or petty sessional division

in counties, in like manner and under the same are elected."-(Sir Robert Anstruther.)

regulations as guardians for the relief of the poor

MR. COLLINS said, they had not had much assistance from the front Opposition bench in the conduct of this Bill. He saw that the hon. Member for Clackmannan (Mr. Adam) had taken the position of Leader of the Opposition, and he should be glad to hear his opinion on the subject.

SIR WILFRID LAWSON said, that the proposal of the hon. Baronet had received a considerable amount of support out-of-doors, and that was more than could be said for the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. Then, again, it was said there were difficulties in the scheme of his hon. Friend the Member for Fifeshire. Of course there were. There were difficulties in most schemes. The whole thing itself was a difficulty and an anomaly, and the trade was in an anomalous position altogether. All he could say was, that there was a growing opinion in favour of giving a majority of the ratepayers a control over the licensing system, and he should certainly support the modification of it contained in the proposal of his hon. Friend, if he went to a division.

MR. GREGORY said, the Amendment recognized the representative principle introduced by the hon. Baronet (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) in his Permissive Liquor Bill--a principle which, if enacted,

N

MR. WHITWELL objected that the Amendment introduced a totally new principle in dealing with established and vested interests, and ought not to be adopted as it were by a side-wind, but deliberately considered in relation to all its possible consequences. He therefore moved as an Amendment to that of the hon. Baronet to add the word "new," after the words "after the issue of any."

to the number of these houses they would | was upheld, was in his place. He prepermit to be opened. It had lately been sumed that as those who usually occupied said by an eminent authority that pub-seats on that bench were absent, they lic-houses degraded and ruined those were on the permissive side of the queswho used them. That statement was tion. Notwithstanding the absence of made not by any rabid advocate of the those hon. Gentlemen, he believed the permissive or prohibitory principle, but hon. Baronet opposite would be beaten by the leading journal of this country- on this question again. a journal which, though it might be seldom far in advance, never lagged very far behind public opinion. More than that, his right hon. Friend had himself said on former occasions that the ratepayers ought to have a control in this matter, and the larger that control the better. Moreover, the numerous public meetings held in every part of the country, and the rapturous applause which greeted the speakers who advocated these principles, showed that opinion was ripening upon this question, and unless he heard some better and stronger reasons than any he had heard yet against the adoption of his addition to the clause, he should certainly take the sense of the House upon it. For his own part, he did not believe in what was called personal government, or agree in handing over such questions to the magistrates and allowing them to deal with them as they pleased. One thing he did know the division upon the Motion would be scanned throughout the whole country more closely than any which had taken place on this Bill, and though he might be defeated, that would only be an incentive to renewed efforts to win for the people at large self-government in a matter which more deeply interested them than almost any other that could be named.

Amendment proposed,

At the end of the Clause, to add the words "Provided that in any parish the ratepayers may by a vote taken according to the regulations in or made under the third Schedule of this Act, prevent the issue of any certificate or licenses by the licensing authority or revenue department for the sale of intoxicating liquors within the parish in which such vote is taken."—(Sir Wilfrid Lawson.) Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, after the words "issue of any," to insert the word "new."-(Mr. Whitwell.)

MR. BRUCE hoped that neither the hon. Member for Carlisle, by his Amendment, nor the hon. Member for Kendal, by his Amendment of that Amendment, was about to raise any discussion on the Permissive Bill, the principle of which had already engaged their attention for a sufficiently long time. By his Amendment the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle had introduced all the evils connected with the action of the ratepayers, and he had made it still more objectionable to give them the power and control he contemplated, by connecting their power with the suggestion of a wholesale confiscation of licenses. This year Government had brought forward a measure which embodied everything they thought the time was ripe for, and it certainly was Baronet was on that subject in advance not ripe for the Permissive Bill. The hon. of the age. He trusted that he would not continue to occupy the time of the Committee by further contesting the principle, but that he would allow the consideration of the Bill they were engaged upon to proceed.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, he COLONEL BARTTELOT said, there hoped to have an opportunity of voting were two ways of voting in that House against the Amendment of the hon. one was to be absent, and the other to Baronet; at the same time he sympabe present. He was glad to see his hon. thized with him in one of the sentiments Friend the Member for North Hamp- to which he had given utteranceshire (Mr. Sclater-Booth), who had pre- namely, his objection to the machinery sided over a conference at which the of the Bill being entrusted to one body principle advocated by the hon. Baronet-the licensing justices-for the tendency

tion was, he thought, to be deprecated. But the hon. Baronet proposed to substitute ratepayers for magistrates, and that in his (Mr. Sclater-Booth's) opinion, would be jumping out of the frying-pan into the fire. One was bad enough, the other worse.

evinced towards that system of legisla- | conduct his own case in his own way. He wanted to know his Friends and the friends of popular control. As the right hon. Gentleman had to some extent, even in the present Bill, given indications of recognizing that princlple, he was not without hope that at the last moment the right hon. Gentleman would go into the same lobby with him. If he (Sir

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER expressed surprise that the right hon. Gen-Wilfrid Lawson), as the Home Secretary tleman the Home Secretary had mixed alleged, were in advance of the age, the up the Amendment and the amended right hon. Gentleman lagged behind. Amendment. The latter dealt only with As to the Permissive Bill being a meathe issue of fresh licenses, was in no sure of wholesale confiscation, he utterly degree connected with the confiscation of denied the charge. The same accusation existing interests, and was similar in had over and over again been made in principle to one of the clauses which the the journals of the trade against the right hon. Gentleman himself introduced right hon. Gentleman's own measure, last Session-the best part, indeed, he and more especially in a letter recently thought of last year's Bill. He hoped published from a poor man who kept a the hon. Member for Kendal would public-house. It was not exactly cordivide, in order that he might have the rect, moreover, for the right hon. Genopportunity of giving him his support. tleman to state that he (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) was going by his Amendment to substitute ratepayers for the magistracy.

MR. CAWLEY thought that if the ratepayers were to have a veto given them over the issue of licenses they also should have the power to compel their issue. Any limitation of the prohibition could hardly be reconciled with strictly equitable dealing.

MR. T. E. SMITH considered that had it not been for the action of the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle, the Home Secretary would not have got so far as he had done on the question. He further believed if the right hon. Gentleman's own feelings in the matter were free, they would have something like popular control in this measure. The Amendment might be like the Permissive Bill; but the question the Committee had to decide was, whether they would admit popular influence and popular feeling into the settlement of this important issue. He believed it must be settled in that way, and he should vote for the Amendment, because he felt that the people ought to exercise a voice in dealing with this matter.

MR. BRUCE urged the Committee to proceed with the consideration of the Bill. The permissive principle had for many days occupied the time of Parliament, and in now again discussing it the hon. Baronet only injured his own cause. He recommended the Amendment to be withdrawn.

SIR WILFRID LAWSON said, he was much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his advice; but he should

MR. AUBERON HERBERT thought he could point out a way by which the hon. Baronet could carry his measure. If he would get that portion of the ratepayers who were of his opinion to ask that they might be allowed, so far as they themselves were concerned, to prohibit the use of all spirituous liquors and the entrance into all public-houses, and would be willing to inflict penalties for non-compliance upon themselves, without interfering with the rest of the community, the House would, no doubt, give a very hearty support to his measure next Session.

"That the word 'new'

be there inserted."
Question put,

The Committee divided:
Noes 118: Majority 76.

-Ayes 42;