213 Attorneys and Solicitors Act {JULY 31, 1872}

MR. C. SEELY (Nottingham) said, it was extremely popular for hon. Members to come to that House when there was any grievance to redress in their particular localities; but what he wanted to know was where such action was to stop? If this practice were generally followed the House would have to sit 12 instead of six months.

And it being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned till To-morrow.

FACTORIES (HOURS OF LABOUR) BILL.
(Mr. Mundella, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Morley, Mr.
Philips, Mr. Thomas Hughes, Mr. Carter,
Mr. Richard Shaw, Mr. Hinde Palmer, Mr.
Armitstead.)

(1860) Amendment Bill. 214

mass of men, and when he looked upon | from Hamburg with cattle plague, the the varied industries and interests of the last two contained German cattle, among nation at large, he could not but ask which cattle plague existed; and that, whether it was not rash and presumptu- as far as they could ascertain, there were ous on their part to attempt to control no Russian cattle in the same ships. those forces which had shaken other That was a different fact from what he nations and might shake this. had gathered that morning, and the result was that they were obliged to conclude that cattle plague existed at Hamburg. They had, therefore to consider whether they could permit the Order to remain in force by which SchleswigHolstein cattle were allowed to come into this country free, without being slaughtered at the port of landing. With cattle plague existing at Hamburg, they felt that the cattle trade with SchleswigHolstein could not be deemed safe, and, therefore, the Privy Council found themselves reluctantly compelled to cancel that Order. They were also obliged to schedule sheep coming from Germany; that was to say, to require them to be slaughtered at the port of landing. The position of Schleswig-Holstein cattle, therefore, would be what it was a month or two ago; and all German cattle and sheep would have to be slaughtered at the port of landing. He was very sorry for the inconvenience that would thus be occasioned to the trade, but it was, he thought, impossible to adopt any other course than that which he had described, with the cattle plague existing at the chief German port. Hitherto, they had prohibited all import from countries where cattle plague prevailed. But he hoped that the German Government would take speedy and effectual steps to stamp out the plague completely, by which means that serious inconvenience to the trade might be obviated. But whatever inconvenience to the trade might arise from a partial prohibition, it would not affect the price of meat so much as the spread of the cattle plague would do.

[BILL 118.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. MR. ANDERSON, in moving "That the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Bill be now discharged," had to say that with regard to a Petition from 35,000 persons in its favour, every precaution had been taken to prevent any fraudulent signatures.

MR. MUNDELLA intimated his intention of re-introducing the Bill on the first day of next Session, and hoped that in the interval some investigation would be made into the matter.

MR. BRUCE assured his hon. Friend that the inquiry would not only be full, but impartial.

Motion agreed to.

Order discharged; Bill withdrawn.

CATTLE PLAGUE.-QUESTION. MR. PELL asked the Vice President of the Council, Whether, since answering the Question put to him in the early ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS ACT (1860) part of the day by the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. C. S. Read), he had obtained any further information relating to the spread of rinderpest among German cattle?

MR. W. E. FORSTER said, that since he answered the Question his noble Friend (the Marquess of Ripon) and himself had gone into all the information they could obtain, and found out that of the three cargoes which came

AMENDMENT BILL.

On Motion of Mr. GORDON, Bill to amend the Attorneys and Solicitors Act, 1860, by extending land the privileges conferred therein on Writers to members of the Faculty of Advocates in Scot

to the Signet, Solicitors before the Supreme Courts, and Procurators before the Sheriff Courts, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GORDON, Mr. GREGORY, and Sir DAVID WEDDERBURN.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 282.]

House adjourned at five minutes before Six o'clock.

PAWNBROKERS BILL-(No. 262.)

(The Earl of Harrowby.)

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

to cases of this kind formerly possessed by the Home Secretary under the Local Government Act and the Sanitary Act, were last year transferred to the Local Government Board. The Local Government Board, accordingly, had communicated with the Lambeth Vestry, and had inquired what steps they intended to take in the matter. The Vestry stated that they had under consideration a report by their medical officer, as to the injury to health done by the emission of muriatic acid. No answer had, however, been received from them as to whether they contemplated taking any, and if so, what steps. Until the Vestry had come to a decision, nothing could be done, because the Local Government Board could not interfere unless and until the local authority failed to do their duty in respect to any nui-mittee. He, therefore, anticipated no sance injurious to health. As to injuries opposition to the Bill at that stage. to property, it rested with individuals to have recourse to the ordinary Courts of Law.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the necessity of some re-construction of the whole law on the subject had been long felt, for it was admitted that parts of the existing Acts were practically a dead letter. Indeed, the evidence taken during the Inquiry instituted by the Select Committee of the House of Commons showed that it had ceased to be customary to comply with the existing Acts; and the present Bill was entirely founded on the recommendations of the Report of that Com

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." (The Earl of Harrowby.)

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he had been requested by a com

ENDOWED SCHOOLS COMMISSIONERS-mittee of pawnbrokers to support this
CHARITY OF DAVID HUGHES AT BEAU-
MARIS; SCHOOL AT FELSTEAD; AND

I have received your Addresses, praying that I would withhold my Assent from the schemes of

Bill. The proposed increase in the rate of interest would be partly compsnsated for by a lower charge being exacted for the tickets. The Bill, however, contained a Proviso enacting that a halfpenny should be paid where a farthing was due, and a penny in lieu of three farthings, as this appeared to be done with the intention of getting rid of farthings by a side wind, he should give Notice of an Amendment to omit the Proviso.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he could not help calling the attention of the noble Lord who had moved the second reading, and also that of the Government, to the practice of passing

the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the through these Bills at the very end of

management of the charity founded by will of David Hughes, dated 30th of December 1609, at Beaumaris, in the county of Anglesey; for the management of the School, and Almshouse Charity or Charities known as the Felstead Charities, founded by Richard Lord Rich, at Felstead, in the county of Essex; and for the management of the School founded by Robert Pursglove, at Tideswell, in the county of Derby, in the year 1561. “I shall withhold my assent from the schemes."

the Session, when there was no time to fully consider them. If a Bill came up to their Lordships prepared under the eyes of the Government, it would be different; but that Bill had been prepared by a private Member, and he did not believe there was any responsibility attaching to it. Not only that, but it repealed a number of existing statutes, for on looking into it he found that the Schedule began by reciting the statute of the reign of James I., which enabled persons who had their property stolen to recover it from the pawnbroker, and

THE EARL OF HARROWBY said, he wished to explain that in all transactions above 108. between pawnbrokers and their customers there would be free trade. It was only in small sums under that amount the pawnbroker was to be forbidden to charge a higher rate of interest. In these cases, the principles of free trade had been interfered with by the existing law; but for higher sums the pawnbroker and his customer would be allowed to make their own bargain. The Bill had met with the approbation of city missionaries and other friends of the poor, and, under all the circumstances, he hoped it approximated sufficiently to free trade to satisfy the noble Marquess.

then it went on to deal with an Act of George IV. Such a measure should have been examined by those of their Lordships who were learned in the law. He did not pretend to say what this Bill did or did not contain, but one thing which characterized this anomalous legislation was the manner in which it interfered with the right of free trade between the pawnbroker and those who went to him. He, however, had never heard of anybody standing up for the rights of the customers. It was said the pawnbrokers were in favour of the Bill, and no wonder, for it would enable them to charge 25 per cent interest in certain cases, the highest rate which they could now charge being 20 per cent. It would also enable them to charge a small sum for the ticket, an arrangement which in the case of small advances for short periods would increase the actual amount of interest from 25 to 50 per cent. These small loans of two and three shillings formed an enormous proportion of the whole. He confessed he ARMY RE-ORGANIZATION-THE SCIENdisliked such a subject being handled by any other than a responsible Minister of the Crown, and he should, therefore, not object to let the matter sleep for two or three years, till the Government could take it up. Besides, it was certain that, sooner or later, we should have to carry out our free trade policy by extending it to transactions between pawnbrokers and their customers. He would move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.

THE EARL OF MORLEY said, he was quite aware that the arguments of the noble Marquess had considerable force, particularly as the Bill had only been printed that morning; but, so far from it being a measure that had not been considered by the House of Commons and Her Majesty's Government, the subject had been considered two years ago by a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and the Bill itself had been sent to a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and had been carefully examined by the Home Office. It had been agreed on by both sides, and only one hon. Member had opposed the progress of the Bill. He, therefore, hoped the noble Marquess would not oppose the second reading, as their Lordships would have an opportunity of considering all the provisions of the Bill next week.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he would not press his Amendment.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordthe Whole House on Tuesday next. ingly, and committed to a Committee of

TIFIC CORPS - ROYAL ARTILLERY AND ROYAL ENGINEERS THE PROMOTIONS.-ADDRESS FOR RETURNS. LORD STRATHNAIRN, who had given Notice to move for Returns showing the effects of the promotions in the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers and the officers of the other Corps, said: My Lords, no one is more opposed than myself to Parliamentary interference in military affairs, but interference becomes a duty, when errors, inherent in a civil government of the Army, and uninfluenced by the opinions of its military head, compromise at times its best interests. Late Sessions afford striking examples of the unfavourable effects of the supreme military authority being vested in the hands of a Minister who, great as may be his eloquence and his ability, has during the whole of his life been unacquainted with a profession which, more than any other, requires experience at the helm. I shall have the honour to submit to your Lordships one example of this great anomaly, because it has strong analogy with the question of supersession, and is appropriate, showing that the inexperience of the head of the War Department led him to adopt a policy fatal to a great Army interest the soldier's pension, which the experience of the Commanderin-Chief obliged him to oppose; and the

example is the more opportune, because | characterized it as a "tentative measure;" the interference of the House of Lords and afterwards recorded his opposition saved the Army from a dilemma. Dis- to it in a compact made in debate in cussions, my Lords, in and out of Parlia- your Lordships' House with Lord Northment, without end, and the best military brook, in July, 1870, in which he stated opinions, have decided that the policy that he would vote for the second readwhich gives the greatest expansion in a ing of the Short Service Act on the underright direction to the soldier's powers of standing that it was to run pari passû— thought and reflection is the safest gua- co-exist-with the Long Service Act and rantee of his moral welfare and his dis- pension. For the sake of the conciliation cipline. And it follows, by simple logic, and good understanding which it is so that this desideratum is obtained by desirable should exist between Parliapension, which is only given to good ment and Her Majesty's Government, I soldiers, and which causes a man to shall not follow further the course of reflect for 21 years that good conduct this affair, and shall only say—what it ensures him a happy home and inde- is indispensable should be said, that pendence; while the contrary, miscon- afterwards an official Order, not emanduct, entails on him the unenvied ex- ating from the illustrious Duke, disconistence, the isolation from belongings, tinued enlistment under the Long Service and the dependence of the workhouse. Act and pension. With my impression Unfortunately, the Secretary of State as to the ruinous consequences to the for War, under the influence of Prussian Army of the loss of pension, I made fresuccesses, has become an ardent admirer quent appeals to the representatives of and advocate of the Prussian system of the War Department in your Lordships' short service without pension; so much House, supported efficaciously by noble so, that he said in "another place" that Lords, but most especially so by the it lay at the root of all Army reform; noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisand he was the more enamoured of the bury), and finally, as the Session was system, because it had been calculated drawing to a close, solicited a conversathat the discontinuance of the pension, tion with Lord Northbrook in the Library, and the lump sum of money in hand in in which I made another effort for the lieu of it, at the end of the short service, restoration of the pension. To my great would enable the right hon. Gentleman satisfaction, the noble Lord then into make great savings, which would pay formed me that a General Order would off the heavy cost of retirements hitherto shortly be issued, restoring the Long borne by the purchase system. But the Service Act with pension. I am glad to knowledge of the illustrious Duke of have this opportunity of recording my British and foreign Armies had taught sense of the courtesy and frankness with him that a system which was practicable which the noble Lord, whose ability we and successful under the Prussian com- have so often admired in debate, conpulsory, involuntary, would be imprac- ducted his relations with me in and out ticable with its contrast, the English of this House. This brief history of the voluntary service. And the Commander- pension, my Lords, is an appropriate prein-Chief also knew that the loss of pen-face to, and throws a light on the question sion would diminish good recruiting, strike a blow at the discipline and wellbeing of British troops, and that the lump sum of money given on discharge to soldiers of the peculiar material which composes the British Army-excellent when under proper influences, but not so reliable when freed from themwould close a career, deprived of a great incentive to good pension, with scenes of excesses, destitution, and dependence, discreditable to the service and to the country. His Royal Highness, therefore, far from associating himself with the unqualified enthusiastic praise of short service without pension, invariably

of supersession now before the House. Both questions evince misconception of military interests and feeling. The one of pension-the sure and best guarantee of the soldier's discipline, and a reward of his long and good service; the other an equal disregard of the rights of promotion and feelings of the officers. The attitude of the Commander-in-Chief has points of analogy in both cases. His Royal Highness's objections were decided as to the discontinuance of the pension. In the case of supersession, His Royal Highness preferred retirement to the measure of the Government. And how, my Lords, could the Com