said department, and thereafter the various clauses and provisions of this Act in which the term Board of Education' occurs shall be construed and have effect as if the term 'Scotch Education Department' were substituted therefor. 4. The first meeting of the Board of Education shall be held in Edinburgh on the second Friday of October, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two, or on such other day thereafter as shall be appointed by the Scotch Education Department, and at such place in Edinburgh as the said department shall appoint. Subsequent meetings shall be held at such times and places as the board shall direct. Ordinary meetings shall be held in the office of the board (except during the months of August and September) at intervals which shall not without reasonable cause exceed one month, and special meetings may be held at any time according to the pleasure of the board. Any meeting may be adjourned. some MR. NEWDEGATE: The right hon. and learned Lord's definition between explanation and argument was what abstruse. His explanation, if such it was intended to be, was the civilest and narrowest he ever remembered. He put it to the House if ever there was a narrower. Still, he thought he had been able to gather the intention of the right hon. and learned Lord, and he would thank the right hon. and learned Lord to correct him if he was mistaken. The original frame of the Bill, as it went to the Lords, rendered that education Board, then called a Commission, totally subordinate to the Scotch_Department of the Privy Council for Education. The Lords had differed as to the propriety of that subordination; but the right hon. and learned Lord Ad 5. The Board of Education may submit for the consideration of the Scotch Education Department the conditions according to which, in their opinion, parliamentary grants may be most advocate and Her Majesty's Government vantageously distributed in Scotland: Provided always, That the duty of determining from time to time the rates and conditions according to which the said grants may be given under the provisions of this Act, and of framing and from time to time revising the minutes containing the same shall be upon the Scotch Education Depart-it. ment,"-(The Lord Advocate,) -instead thereof. MR. NEWDEGATE said, he was fully sensible of the inconvenience of the present mode of proceeding, because the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate moved Amendments of which he had not given Notice according to the almost universal custom of the House. The right hon. and learned Lord had also been careful to state to the House that he did not intend to explain his Amendments. In the first place, the House had not, according to the usual custom, the Amendments printed before it; and in the next place, the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate declares that he does not intend to explain them. THE LORD ADVOCATE reminded the hon. Member that he had stated it was not the custom to put Amendments to the Lords' Amendments on the Paper, and that, so far from saying that he did not intend to explain them, he had explained them. MR. NEWDEGATE: The right hon. and learned Lord said "I am not entering into any explanation." THE LORD ADVOCATE said, the hon. Member had misunderstood him. What he said was, that he would not enter into arguments, but would confine himself to explanations. were determined that they would make this Board subordinate, and the step they took was to remove from the Board the two officers of the Crown, whom the Lords had proposed should form part of They then took the Amendments of the Lords down to Clause G. Now, Clause G was a clause which gave a separate and an independent constitution to the Board, inasmuch as it enabled the Board, as the Lords proposed, to frame the Code; and not only to frame the Code, but, independently of the Department of Privy Council, to submit that Code to Parliament. Now all that the right hon. and learned Lord proposed to eliminate. The whole purpose, therefore, of the right hon. and learned Lord's Amendments to the Lords' Amendments, including the rendering the duration of this Board temporary, was to make the Scotch Education Board as completely subordinate to the Department of the Privy Council as in fact were the Inspectors. The Board would, if the Government Amendments were adopted, be able only to suggest, and they could suggest only to the Department of the Privy Council. They could not, as the Lords proposed, suggest and propose anything to Parliament, with respect to the form of the Code or with respect to the appropriation of the grant. A strong objection was taken in Scotland and in this House to rendering the whole of the whole of the Scotch elementary education subordinate to the Privy Council. The House of Lords entertained that objection, and had However excellent and efficient the chief of the Privy Council Department might be, the work which fell upon him in connection with the cattle plague and English education was more than he ought reasonably to be expected to perform, and it was inconceivable that anyone could undertake the superintendence of English education, and at the same time devote his attention to the subject of Scotch education, which would occupy more time than what was called the Scotch Board would be able to give. framed clauses whereby Scotland would | House. MR. MACFIE said, he agreed that the intention of the new clauses submitted to the House was to deprive Scotland of what it wanted-a native Scotch Board, independent of everything except the distribution of money. The great controversy in the Established Church of Scotland was whether there should be religious teaching in Scotland independent of the State, and the great majority of the people said that they were willing that the Government should collect the money and manage its distribution; but with regard to the character of the education to be given, the Scotch people, almost to a man, said that having for three centuries and upwards managed their own education efficiently and with satisfaction to themselves, they objected to the proposal of the Lord Advocate, and wished still to regulate their own educational affairs; and the House of Lords, rightly interpreting their views, had introduced these clauses, which he was astonished that a Liberal Government should object to, with a view to have the education of the people of Scotland subjected to the control of Downing Street. He boldly said it in the presence of Scotchmenand he knew there were Scotchmen in the gallery. ["Order!"] He begged to withdraw the expression, as he found it was not permitted by the Rules of the MR. COLLINS remarked on the serious disadvantage the House was placed in on such occasions as the present, owing to the practice of not giving Notice of the Amendments which were to be proposed. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to omit six clauses and to combine their substance into three new ones, the full meaning of which it was almost impossible to catch as they were read from the Chair. He thought the practice of the House in this respect ought to be re-considered. MR. W. E. FORSTER, while admitting the force of the observations of the hon. and learned Member who had just spoken, did not think that at this period of the Session they could with advantage enter upon the question of changing the custom and practice of the House; neither did he think his right hon. and learned Friend had departed from precedent in the course he had taken. He did not believe there was much difference between the two Houses in the matter of the Board. The management of the schools was to be left to Scotchmen, and also the putting of the Act into operation. This House sent up to the House of Lords a Commission, and the House of Lords turned it into a Scotch Board. [Mr. KINNAIRD: For two years only.] His hon. Friend the Member for Perth said "for two years." Well, he (Mr. Forster) had no doubt that the Board could accomplish their work in two years; and, indeed, he might say that his knowledge of the facilities already existing in Scotland led him to believe that they would do it in less time. The Board, however, might be found useful, and, therefore, the Government had taken powers to continue it. With regard to the Code there was a slight misconception. There seemed to exist an impression that by this Bill the Government were introducing a new principle, and | right hon. and learned Lord that whereas taking power over the disposal of Par- the House of Lords had decided upon a liamentary grants for Scotland which Scotch Education Board, and imposed did not exist before. But they were upon it the duty of appointing a Secredoing no such thing. Every time that tary, the right hon. and learned Lord money had been granted for Scotland it would take the power from the Board had been disposed of in the same way and confer it upon the Secretary of State as in England. Instead of taking more or the Treasury. No reason whatever power, the Government were actually had been assigned for such a change. taking less. In giving Imperial money The right hon. and learned Lord had to Scotland, they must give it on the proposed a distinct scheme without giving same principle on which it was given to the House the slightest notice of his England, making the Government of the intention, and the only intimation of the day responsible for its distribution. How- intention of the Government was that ever, the Government were quite willing given by the Prime Minister, who stated that this Board of eminent Scotchmen that there was every reason to hope should offer suggestions which they that there would be no difference of thought suitable for Scotland, for he opinion respecting the Amendments. thought the Board would give valuable hints with regard to education, not only in Scotland, but in England. LORD JOHN MANNERS complained of the unfairness of the Government in proposing Amendments of that kind without giving due Notice of them. When Amendments were proposed to the Lords' Amendments, they were generally put in a succinct form, stating those to which the House proposed to agree, and those from which it was intended to dissent, so that the House might be able to arrive at a definite conclusion; but on the present occasion the House did not possess that advantage. Until the right hon. and learned Lord rose there was not any hon. Member of the House who was aware of the course which the Government intended to pursue. With respect to the three new clauses which the right hon. and learned Lord proposed to substitute for the six old ones, he had not been able to follow their meaning sufficiently to comprehend them. He gathered that in two particulars there was an important difference between the two sets of clauses. The right hon. and learned Lord proposed that the Board should exist for two years. [Mr. W. E. FORSTER: With power to renew.] It was a complicated system, and the renewal was to be by Order in Council laid before Parliament. Now, two years was a very short time, and considering that the Act came into operation in October, the two years nominally might not exceed a year and a-half. It would be far better to give a longer period to the Scotch Board to deal with educational business. Then, again, he gathered from the statement of the DR. LYON PLAYFAIR regretted that the Vice President of the Council had spoken so early in the debate on these Amendments, because he had hoped to have obtained from him some assurances as to the constitution of the Scotch Education Department. That was the supreme ruling power which would regulate education in Scotland, and would govern the Education Board, the Members of which would be merely Privy Council Commissioners for the specific performance of the duty of organizing schools under the Act. But the Scotch Education Department was the Government concession to the prayer of almost every Petition from Scotch constituencies that the national characteristics of Scotch education should be preserved. He had never yet had any satisfactory explanation as to the constitution of that Department; and on this subject considerable anxiety prevailed. Was it to consist of men devoted to education, or was it to be made up of a few ornamental Privy Councillors, who, like the Committee of Council, existed rather in name than in reality? He did not wish to lessen Ministerial responsibility; but the Scotch people would recollect that the "Scotch Department was the answer to their Petitions, and they would expect it to be a working reality, and not a mere name. SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, he did not think the change proposed by the Government one of so sweeping a character as it had been represented. The House of Lords recognized the proper subordination of a Board sitting in Edinburgh to a Department responsible to Parliament, and to vest the responsi bility in the Education Department | ferred a Board popularly elected. In would best secure Scotch interests and fact, the right hon. and learned Lord wishes. He considered that course of Advocate, when Solicitor General in conduct consistent with the tentative character of the present legislation upon the subject. There was already a tendency to bring all the scholars to a dead level, and he feared that unless the Revised Code were modified, the higher education given in Scotch schools would be discouraged. Care should be taken to show equal justice to elementary and higher education, and the Inspectors would be able to give advice to the Department in this matter. MR. C. DALRYMPLE maintained that there was a material difference between the proposal of the Lords and that of the Government. While the former contemplated a permanent Board, the latter sought to limit its duration to two years, instead of three years, as the Bill originally proposed, there being little likelihood of an extension of the term hereafter. It would, moreover, apparently be the creation of the Scotch Education Department—a body the constitution of which he had vainly endeavoured to ascertain. He regretted that the Government proposed to exclude the Law Officers of the Crown from the Board, and he looked forward with little confidence to the way in which its members would be nominated. MR. KINNAIRD condemned the course which had been taken by the Government in not placing their voluminous and intricate Amendments upon the Paper. The fact was, that they were living under a despotic Government. Within the last 10 days he had had communications from his constituents, praying him to give them some information as to what was the nature of the Amendments to be proposed by the Government in contradistinction to the Lords' Amendments; but that information, in consequence of the reticence of the Government, he had been unable to give them. He felt bound to enter his protest against the course which had been taken by the Government in reference to this question. MR. GORDON said, that, seeing that the House of Lords had sacrificed so many of their predilections, he thought their Lordships should have been met in a fairer spirit. The concession as to the Scotch Education Department was merely nominal. He should have infinitely pre 1869, stated his approval of the Law Officers of the Crown having seats at the Board. There could be no doubt in what they had proposed that the House of Lords had put themselves in harmony with the general feelings of Scotchmen. The three great Presbyterian Bodies in Scotland, the Convention of the Royal burghs, and the schoolmasters, had all expressed themselves in favour of a Scottish Board. No more numerously signed Petitions had ever been presented to that House on any subject, and the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) had given the authority of Government to the wish of Scotland that there should be a national Board. The Bill, moreover, interfered not only with elementary education, but with the secondary schools, over which the Privy Council would take no charge whatever. There was the example of Ireland, where there had been a Commission of Inquiry, which had reported in favour of the continuance of the Board, and for Ireland there was a Supplementary Vote of £80,000 to be moved this Session to improve the position of Irish schoolmasters. Scotland acknowledged that the Privy Council should have a right finally to adjust the Board, and the Lords' Amendment expressly recognized that right, and he believed that the proper course would be to follow the Lords' Amendments. If they did not do that, they would be landed at once in the midst of considerable difficulties. LORD GARLIES said, he trusted the Government would prolong the duration of the Board to three years. Two years were not sufficient to enable the Board to complete the work of organization; and with a longer term of office a higher type of men would be secured. Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the said Amendment." The House divided:-Ayes 72; Noes 128: Majority 56. Words inserted. Another Amendment made to the said Amendment. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Amendments, as far as the Amend- Amendment proposed to the proposed Consequential Amendment, to insert, in line 4, after the word "by," the words "the Board of Education or by."(Lord John Manners.) ment in page 7, line 35, inclusive, read a second time; several agreed to; one amended, and agreed to; and several disagreed to. THE LORD ADVOCATE proposed to disagree with the Lords' Amendments to Clauses 9 and 10, and to omit the clauses in question from the Bill in order to insert a new clause, leaving it to the Education Board, or, if it should cease to exist, to the Education Department, to fix the period of school-board elections, having regard to the peculiarities and convenience of the various localities in which the elections occur. Consequential Amendment proposed to the Bill in lieu of Clauses 9 and 10, to insert the words,— "Each school board elected under the provisions of this Act shall remain in office until a new election shall take place as hereinafter provided, and the time for every election subsequent to the first shall be appointed by the Scotch Education Department, having regard to the circumstances and convenience of the locality in which the election is to take place, and so that so far as prac ticable and convenient there shall be an election in each parish and burgh for which a separate school board is appointed to be elected once, and not oftener, in every period of three years, and that each school board shall remain in office for three years, and no longer; and it shall be lawful for the said department to appoint the time or times for the elections subsequent to the first in each parish and burgh by general order, which shall subsist until a new order shall be made; and the school board in office shall, a convenient time before the time so appointed for the next election, take such steps as they shall deem necessary, or as shall be directed by the said department, for the election of a new school board accordingly; and should any election not take place as required by this Act, and at the times hereinbefore specified, the Scotch Education Department may issue an order for an election at such time and place as the said department shall determine, or may allow the existing school board to continue in office, or may nominate a school board for the parish or burgh in which the failure has occurred, in the manner hereinafter provided with respect to any parish or burgh which on the expiration of twelve months from the passing of this Act shall be without a school board, and any same period as a board elected under this Act at board so nominated shall continue in office for the the time when the failure occurred, and shall have all the powers and be required to perform all the duties of a board so elected; and should a vacancy occur in any board during the currency of its period of office, such vacancy shall be supplied by the board itself nominating a person to supply such vacancy, and every person so nominated shall go out of office at the same date as the school board."-(The Lord Advocate.) Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted." Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived. Consequential Amendment made. Subsequent Amendments read a second time; several agreed to; several amended and agreed to. Committee appointed, " to draw up Reasons to be assigned to The Lords for disagreeing to the Amendments to which this House hath disagreed:" Mr. WINTERBOTHAM, Mr. HIBBERT, Mr. GLYN, and (Mr. MILITARY FORCES LOCALISATION COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. MR. RYLANDS, in rising to move, as an Amendment ་་ That, having regard to the advanced period of the Session, and the pressure of important Public Business in which the House is already engaged, it is not expedient to proceed further with the consideration of the Bill," said, the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had stated that it would do away with billeting the Militia, and the impression which he conveyed to the House was, that a very large sum of money was required to build barracks for the Militia. But the right hon. Gentleman had also stated that the Militia were to be placed under canvas during training, so that the amount was not really needed. He (Mr. Rylands) believed that the Bill constituted really a scheme for getting more recruits; and against that he must contend that by means of our present system of recruiting, accompanied by certain modifications which would bring the Auxiliary Forces into active combination with the Line, we should have all that was required for the defence of the country; while it was idle to contemplate, with our small Army, making a foreign port the base |