have been abolished; and from the abolition of which I certainly am not one who infers that danger to the country, with which some gentlemen seem to be so deeply impressed. But, deeply as I felt that satisfaction, I also felt that in no possible case previous to the union could the privileges now demanded be given, consistently with a due regard to the Protestant interest in Ireland, to the internal tranquillity of that Kingdom, the frame and structure of our constitution, or the probability of the permanent connection of Ireland with this country. It is true, that after the union, I saw the subject in a different light; but whilst that event was in contemplation I did state, as the honourable gentleman says, that the measure would make a material difference in my opinion; but he has also stated, what is very true, that I did not make a distinct pledge. On the contrary, I believe the line of argument I took was, that if it should be thought right to give what the Catholics required, it might be given after the union with more safety to the Empire; or if it were thought proper to refuse giving it, that it might then be refused without producing those disastrous consequences which might have been apprehended before the union. I come, then, to the present discussion, perfectly free and unfettered. I certainly was of opinion that under an united Parliament those privileges might be granted under proper guards and conditions, so as not to produce any danger to the established Church, or the Protestant constitution. And I remain this day of that opinion and I still think, if, from other circumstances, there was no objection to complying with the demands of the Catholics, and if by a wish they could be carried into effect, I own I see none of those dangers which have been urged by some gentlemen, nor do I think that the introduction of a certain proportion of Catholics into the Imperial Parliament would be likely to be productive of any influence or effect detrimental or injurious to the welfare of the estate, or the safety or security of the constitution.

But, Sir, in delivering this frank opinion, I do not mean wilfully to shut my eyes to this conviction, that a Catholic, however honourable his intentions may be, must feel anxious to advance the interests of his religion; it is in the very nature of man; he may disclaim and renounce this wish for a time, but there is no man, who is at all acquainted with the operations

of the human heart, who does not know that the Catholic must feel that anxiety whenever the power and the opportunity may be favourable to him. But, if these guards and conditions to which I have alluded had been applied, and which, could my wishes have been accomplished, it would have been my endeavour to have supplied, I firmly believe no danger would have existed, and no injury could have been apprehended. I thought so on grounds different from those which have been stated by others, not because as Catholics they had been engaged in any of the scenes preceding the rebellion. I do not mean, however, to say, that the Catholics were not engaged in it in greater numbers for the reasons that have been stated. I go further; though Jacobin principles were the foundation of the rebellion, yet I do not mean to deny that the influence of the priests themselves, tainted with Jacobin principles, might not have aggravated the evil, though they were not the cause of it. My idea was not to apply tests to the religious tenets of the Catholics, but tests applicable to what was the source and foundation of the evil, to render the priests, instead of making them the instruments of poisoning the minds of the people, dependent in some sort upon the government, and thus links, as it were, between the government and the people. That would have been a wise and comprehensive system; that would have been the system which I should have felt it to be my wish, and thought it to have been my duty, to have proposed. I never thought that it would have been wise or prudent to have thrown down rudely or abruptly the guards and fences of the constitution; but I did think that if the system I have alluded to had been deemed proper to be adopted, it ought to have been accompanied with those checks and guards, and with every regulation that could have given additional respect and influence to the established Church, to the support and protection of the Protestant interests, and to the encouragement of every measure that could tend to propagate and spread the example of the Protestant religion. These were the general views and intentions I entertained. And if, Sir, it had been possible to have found out that general concurrence which I so anxiously desired; if I could have carried them into effect in the manner I have stated; if persons of more ability and experience than myself would have defeated them, I am still inclined to think, that, instead of

being attended with those dangerous consequences which some gentlemen apprehend, they would have afforded increased security to the Church, and have been favourable to the welfare of the State, to the stability of the constitution and to the general strength and interest of the empire.

But when I state this, I must also remind the House that I considered the period of the union as the period favourable for the adoption of such a measure, not because any pledge had been given, but because there was a greater likelihood that the measure might be adopted after the union than before it. The period was favourable also on another account, favourable from the recent impressions that might be expected to be made on men's minds, of the probability of increased security from the union; from being amalgamated and incorporated with the imperial legislature, remote from the dangerous influence that might at times have been supposed to operate upon it, and overawe the local legislature of Ireland. Sir, I repeat, that if under the recent impression of these circumstances, I could have brought forward the measure as the first fruits of the union, I should have hoped there might have been a disposition to have received it without rekindling those religious animosities, or reviving those contending interests, between Catholic and Protestant, which, whenever they do exist, are most adverse to the welfare, the prosperity, and the happiness of the State.

This was the view in which I considered this most important subject; these were the objects which I wished to attain ; but circumstances, unfortunate circumstances, in my opinion. rendered it at that period impossible to bring forward the measure in the way in which I then hoped it might be practicable to bring it forward—in the only way in which I think it ought at any time to be brought forward-in the only way in which it could be brought forward with advantage to the claims of those whose petition is now under consideration, or with any hope of reconciling all differences, of burying all animosities, and of producing that perfect union, in the advantages of which gentlemen on all sides so entirely concur. What the circumstances were to which I allude, as having at that time prevented me from calling the attention of Parliament to this subject, in the manner and with the prospects which I wished, it is not now necessary for me to state. All the explanations

which I thought it my duty to give I gave at that time-more I do not feel myself now called upon to give, and nothing shall induce me to enter into further details upon this subject. I shall, therefore, now content myself with stating that the circumstances which made me feel that it was then improper to bring forward this question, and which led to the resignation of the then administration, have made so deep, so lasting an impression upon my mind, that, so long as those circumstances continue to operate, I shall feel it a duty imposed upon me not only not to bring forward, but not in any manner to be a party in bringing forward or in agitating this question.

Having said this much, Sir, upon the opinions I then entertained, and upon the principles which then, and I trust always will, govern my conduct, I think it right to add that the whole of the plan which I had formed, the whole essence of the system which I meant to have proposed, was a measure of peace, of union, of conciliation-a measure which I did hope would have had the effect of softening down all religious differences, of extinguishing all animosities, and in uniting all men of both religions in one common zeal for the preservation of the constitution and for the general happiness and prosperity of the empire. But, desirous as I then was of proposing this measure, and sanguine as I was in my hopes of its success, nothing could be further from my intention than to bring it forward if there did not appear a rational prospect of it being carried (not with unanimity, for upon such an important subject that I knew was impossible), but with general concurrence, because I knew that, if it were brought forward under other circumstances, instead of producing the effect I had wished, it would only tend to revive those animosities which I wished to extinguish, to aggravate those difficulties which I wished finally to remove. Not being able, from the circumstances to which I have alluded, to propose the measure which I thought likely to be productive of such beneficial effects, I did then form the determination not to press it at any period unless I thought it could be done with that prospect of success, and with that general concurrence, without which it can never be beneficial. When I use the term general concurrence, I am sure I shall not be supposed ever to have been so visionary as to imagine that a question of such immense importance, and upon which men's feelings and passions are so strongly excited,

could ever be carried with perfect unanimity; but I mean with that general concurrence which would have enabled us to gratify the wishes of one party, without awakening the fears or exciting the jealousy of the other. Whatever gentlemen may think of the abstract rights of the petitioners, or of the expediency of complying with the prayer of their petition, I am sure they will agree with me in thinking that the chance of extinguishing all those animosities which have unfortunately prevailed, and of producing that perfect union which we all wish, must depend upon the combination of circumstances under which the measure was brought forward. Not having in any degree changed my opinion upon this subject, regarding it in the same point of view I did then, and retaining the same feelings, I must say that at the present moment I think I see a little chance, I should rather say I see no chance, of its being carried at all, certainly not in that way which I meant, and in which way only I think it can be productive of real advantage to the petitioners or of benefit to the State; I mean as a measure of peace and conciliation.

If then, Sir, the question is not now to be carried, I think that to agitate it, under such circumstances, will only tend to revive those dissensions which we wish to extinguish, to awaken all that warmth and acrimony of discussion which has heretofore prevailed, and to excite those hopes, which, if they are to be disappointed, may be productive of the greatest mischief. As to the chance of carrying the question at present with general concurrence, of gratifying the Catholics without offending the Protestants, of confirming the affections of the one without raising the suspicions and exciting the fears of the other, not only in Ireland but in England, I confess there appears to me to be none. I lament it as much as any man can do. I lament that the impression which now prevails has taken place; many circumstances have combined to produce that impression, all of which are to be deplored. I ask any gentleman whether he does not believe, looking to the members of the established Church, of the nobility, of the men of property, of the middling and respectable classes of society -I ask him, whether he does not believe, looking at the sentiments of the mass of the Protestants of this country and of Ireland, that there is the greatest repugnance to this measure, and that even if it could now be carried, so far from producing

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