they were all called upon: for inftance, in appeals from the court of King's Bench; they were called upon not to give their opinions upon the cafe, but for the reafons that had induced them to pafs that judgment which had occafioned the appeal. Having faid thus much with refpect to the judges, he declared himlelf against reverfing the decree, and principally for thefe reafons: becaufe whether right or wrong, it had been confidered for more than 200 years as the invariable law of this land-it had frequently been decided upon as fuch, and numbers of worthy characters had acted accordingly, without having the leaft fimoniacal intention by taking fuch a bond whatever. He replied to moft of the particular cafes that had been mentioned by Lord Thurlow, and, coinciding with the judges in their opinion upon them, he did not attempt to defend the practice; it might be an alarming evil, and perhaps called aloud for a reftriction; but then he wifhed it to be checked in a proper manner, and not to immerge fo great a part of the community in difficulties, and who had suppofed they were acting according to the legal authority of their country that it would plunge numbers into difficulties, even the learned prelate, who spoke fo ftrenuoufly, was fully aware of; for even he had propofed an act to be paffed for their indemnification; but who ever heard of giving judgment to inflict punishment firft, and paffing an act afterwards to alleviate it? Let the act be made, and then we might proceed accordingly. He likewife differed from the learned prelate with refpect to that House being competent to decide of itself; fuch a decifion would be contrary to the conftitution; they could only at according to the laws of the country, and their judgment was only fuch as, according to thofe laws, ought to have been given in the courts beHis Lordship then reverted back to fome of the arguments used by Lord Thurlow, and obferved, that whatever might be his reafons for imbibing his prefent opinion, he had not the least doubt but had the cafe been brought before him while he was in Weftminster-hall, he would have fled to, and agreed with thofe precedents which he had now fo ably and ftrenuously endeavoured to prove of no confequence. low. Lord Thurlow faid a few words in reply to fome paffages Lord Thurwhich Lord Mansfield had mifunderstood; after which low. The Duke of Richmond rofe, and stated a matter of fact The D. of which had happened to himself in the purchase of an eftate, Richmond, where the right of receiving thefe refignation bonds had made a difference in the price; and as this circumstance might The Earl of The D. of might have happened to many others, he thought they ought, according to the many decifions that had been given in their favour, to be confidered as good and valid, until an act of Parliament fhould be paffed declaring the contrary. The queftion being put, a divifion was demanded, when there appeared in favour of Lord Thurlow's motion, that the decree be reverfed, 19, againft it 18; majority 1. The Earl of Radnor moved for the following papers, which were ordered to be laid on the table : "That the proper officer do lay before this House, a lift of fuch perfons, together with the names and falaries of their appointments, as the Commiffioners of the Treasury have in pursuance of the act of the laft feffion of Parliament, intituled, "An act for enabling his Majefty to discharge the debt contracted upon his Majefty's Civil Lift Revenues, and for preventing the fame from being in arrears for the future, by regulating the mode of payment out of the faid revenues, and by fuppreffing or regulating certain offices to be mentioned in the faid bill," appointed or continued in office for the purpose of carrying into execution (under the direction of the Lord Stewards, Lord Chamberlain, Mafter of the Horfe, or other principal officers) fuch economical plans, reforms, and alterations, as are therein directed." "That the proper officer do lay before this House, a copy of fuch plan of the eftablishment and payments of the Ci vil Lift Revenues, in claffes, with the eftimates of the expence of each clafs, and of each individual office in each clafs, as by the act is directed to be drawn out by the Commiffioners of his Majefty's Treafury on or before the 5th day of April laft." "That the proper officer do lay before this Houfe, a lift of fuch feveral officers as by the direction of the said act, or by any authority fince the paffing of the fame, have been fuppreffed, with the names of the laft feveral poffeffors, together with an account of fuch annuities as have been fubftituted in compenfation or lieu thereof." June 3. MOTION ON THE COMMISSIONERS FOR THE The Duke of Richmond called the attention of their LordRchmond. fhips to the motion which he had intimated in respect to the conftitution of the Great Seal, and particularly to its pre fent fent fituation in the cuftody of the Commiffioners. He prefaced his fpeech on the subject with adverting to the reform which had been lately agitated in the reprefentation of the people in Parliament, which he difcuffed pretty much at length, and faid, that in every thing which appertained to the conftitution, he wished to fee found principles taken and maintained as the ground work of every measure that was adopted, and he was anxious to try every measure by that criterion. The independency of the Judges was one of those principles which he conceived to be effential to the conftitution, and that the Legiflature ought to be jealous of every thing that could lead in the moft remote degree to affect their independency. The noble Duke went into the hiftory of the Judges in fo far as refpected their original and the progrefs of their establishment; ftating the fubferviency in which they were held before the Revolution, the precarioufnefs of their fituations, and the confequent influence which the Crown thereby held over all their conduct; an influence fo hoftile to freedom, fo inimical to every idea and principle of liberty, that it was impoffible that à nation could be faid to enjoy the ineftimable treasure, where the fources of public juftice were dependent. And here he begged the Houfe to take with them in all that he fhould fay, that he had no intention to make a perfonal attack, no defign to run at any individual, or any fet of individuals whatever. Nothing could be farther from his meaning, he wifhed merely to bring under their Lordships' confideration a point of great public concern, for fuch he fhould ever confider the independency of the Judges; that was the main object of his troubling their Lordships that day, though it might be fuppofed that he intended, and he made no fcruple to avow, that he was chiefly led to undertake what he was then about to ftate, from a confideration of the commiffion into which the Great Seal had been lately put. But he begged to be understood as meaning nothing perfonal to the noble and learned Lord in his eye, [Lord Loughborough] or to any other judge. His Grace then obferved, that the independency of the Judges was a matter in which every perfon muft feel an intereft, * Vide Commons' Debates on the motion of Mr. William Pitt, on the 7th of May. VOL. XI. fince fince the uprightness and integrity of thofe,in whofe hands the lives and properties of the people were placed, were qualities indifpenfably neceffary for the public fecurity, and on which effentially depended an honeft and equitable diftribution of the law of the land. He mentioned, that in the earlier days of this country their dependence refted folely on the will and pleasure of the Crown, and that antecedent to the Revolution all their commiffions exifted only durante bene placito. Soon after the Revolution, an act paffed, (the 13th of William III.) which put the Judges on a better footing, and declared them to be entitled to hold their fituations quamdiu fe bene gefferint, and that their falaries fhould be fixed and afcertained. On the demife of the late King, and prior to that event, doubts had been entertained, whether the Judges' commiffions did not ceafe, when the King who granted them expired. Thefe doubts were doubts, in the true fenfe of the word, becaufe it was a fact that was notorious, that fome of the Judges theinfelves thought their commiffions continued in force, notwithstanding the royal perfon who figned thofe cominiffions had no longer exiftence. Other very worthy men thought differently upon this fubject. However, in the first year of the prefent King, an act paffed, which put an end to all farther doubt, by declaring the Judges to continue in office durante fe bene gefferint, or in other words, to be removable only for crimes, with the fingle exception, that on an addrefs of both Houfes to the Crown for that purpose, they might be removed. Thus matters ftood for fome time; the act of King William clearly avowing, that the falaries of the Judges ought to be fixed and afcertained, and that of 1 George III. giving their commiffions exiftence during life, unless guilty of fome crime, or complained of in the manner he had ftated. Hence his Grace inferred, that it was his opinion, that of all men the Judges ought to be independent, and that their falaries ought to be afcertained; indeed, without the latter, it was impoffible to accomplish the former. Of late years, fome farther additions had been inade to the falaries of the Judges, of which his Grace gave the Houfe a correct account, and particularly mentioned Lord Mansfield's and the other Chief Juftices having written to the Speaker of the Houfe of Commons, requesting him to ftate to the Houfe, that they de fired no increase of falary whatever. His Grace ftated, that very foon afterwards, in March, 1782, a patent paffed, granting the Chief Juftice of the Common Pleas a farther addition addition of roool. a year. That addition was given by the Crown, as his Grace contended, in direct oppofition to the fpirit of the act of William the Third, for it was idle to talk of having the Judges' falaries fixed and afcertained, if the King, whenever he chofe it, could give an addition of one thousand pounds a year to any one Judge. If it could be done to one, it could be done to all; and every one of their Lordships muft fee that if the Crown had fuch a power, the Judges were no more independent now, than at any period, before the Revolution. His Grace dilated upon this for fome time, and faid there were but two means of dependency, men's hopes and fears. The acts of William III. and ift of George III. had effectually taken away the fears, of the Judges, it no longer refting on the will and pleasure of the Crown whether the Judges fhould continue in office or not. But unless their hopes were also removed, the work was but half done; and it was from a confideration of that circumftance, his Grace faid, that he had been prompted to bring the fubject before their Lordships, and that especially by the commiffion lately iffued to three Lords in whole care the Great Seal was at prefent entrufted. His Grace gave a detail of the feveral commiffions iffued for this purpose for many years paft, as well before as fince the Revolution. He ftated that commiffions of the Great Seal had pafled in 1604, 1606, and 1640. He ftated alfo thofe fince the Revolution, and after dwelling upon them for fome time, faid, the Judges in the prefent commiffion were obviously felected by favour, and not by rotation or feniority, which of itself was a circumftance that materially went in his mind to affect their independency. He mentioned the great emoluments that were fuppofed to accrue to the holders of the Great Seal, and which, fuperadded to the falaries enjoyed by the commiffioners in their capacities of Judges, gave them ad-. vantages which could not but tend to raise the hopes of Judges in future to enjoy the fame, and confequently placed them immediately within the influence of the Crown. He declared, he meant not to infinuate any thing to the preju dice of the prefent commiffioners of the Great Seal. He muft do them, and the Judges in general, the juftice to own, that he believed there never was on the bench a fet of more incorruptible and deferving men-men, whofe characters were not liable to the fmalleft impeachment of any kind what ever. He fpoke, what he had faid refpecting the present commiffion, merely from feeling for the confequence of fuch E e 2 a practice |