met again, in order to enable thofe, who would have the bufinels in their hands, to draw a general bill with sufficient attention and care, to render it fit to become a permanent. law. The Earl, before he fat down, faid, he was induced from refpect to their Lordships, and because he forefaw that his propofed amendment might give rife to fome difference of opinion, to ftate his intention then, and to explain the reafons that induced him to adopt it, in order to give their Lordships a fair opportunity of confidering both the one and the other, before they went into a committee.

Portland

The Duke of Portland faid, that he did not fee the value The D. of of the observations which had been made on the bill; but, as the noble Lords who had made them, deferred their farther confideration to its appearance in the committee, fo would he alfo his thoughts upon the subject.

The bill was then read, and committed for Monday.

May 5.

LOAN.

The order of the day was read for the third reading of the loan bill, when

The Earl of Shelburne rose and called the attention of the The Earl of Shelburne, Houfe to two propofitions, which he introduced with a preface of confiderable length, difclaiming all ideas of rancour and enmity, and profeffing that he was actuated by no retrofpective motives whatever. He had turned in his mind a matter which had fallen from a noble Viscount (Lord Stormont) a few days ago, refpecting the exclufive privilege claimed by the Houfe of Commons, of being the inftitutors, and in a great measure the fole directors of all money bills. This was an idea that he wifhed by no means to give any countenance to. The Houfe of Commons, he was well affured by a perfon of the firft diftinction in this country, who had lived in habits of intimacy with all the great men from the reign of King William to the prefent time, were conftantly encroaching on the power of the Lords. And this difpofition to encroach, if fuffered to continue, he need not inform their Lordships muft materially impair, if not totally deftroy, that conftitution which was the envy and the admiration of every foreign nation. Since then a period ought fome time or other to be put to a matter of fuch dangerous tendency, his Lordfhip faw no reafon for delaying the falutary remedy for a fingle moment.

He thought

1

thought the prefent was as opportune a feafon, as any that could poffibly prefent itself in future, and, confidering it in this point of view, he had accordingly drawn up certain refolutions to fubmit to the Houfe, which were meant to take cognizance of money matters. He did not intend by fo doing to create any difference between the two Houfes. What he propofed, was by no means unufual. It had been folemnly decided on the famous diffention between the Upper and Lower House of Parliament in a money cafe, in the year 1673, that the Lords had of right the privilege of intermeddling, controuling, and directing the management of the public. purfe; and if, through lazinefs, or inattention, or timidity, that doctrine had been fince fhaken, he called upon their Lordships, as they tendered the existence of the constitution, to re-establish it on the firmneft foundation. Without meaning to go into that queftion at large on the prefent occafion, or to difcufs the propriety of the argument of the noble Vifcount, he would content himfelf with faying that he had given it a good deal of confideration, and as nothing could be farther from his intention than a defire to diftrefs Government, or to interrupt the public bufinefs, he had hit upon a middle line, which would rescue him from the neceffity of oppofing the third reading of the loan bill, which would fteer compleatly clear of it, and would at the fame time lay down and eftablifh a principle for every Ministry, let the adminiftration be who or what it might, to go by in the conduct of future loans. What he alluded to, his Lordfhip faid, were certain refolutions, which he fhould have the honour to move, but before he moved them, or ftated to their Lordships the reafons on which he had grounded them, he would defire that the proteft of the 21ft of March, 1781, might be read from their Lordships journals*.-The noble Earl faid, that in defiring this proteft to be read, he meant nothing perfonal to the noble perfons who were now in office. He would have figned that proteft himself if he had been prefent on the occafion; he approved of the principle of it, and wifhed to apply it to the prefent day. He enumerated fhortly, but accurately, the ftatements of the feveral loans which we have had fince the year 1776, in order to fhew that the prefent bargain was in every refpect as bad for the public, as that which was complained of in the proteft on the journals, with this very material difference in

Vide Lords Debates for 1781, Vol. IV. Page 181.

the

1

the circumftances of the two, that the one was made in war and the other in peace. He faid, that perhaps that which was bad at one time might be good at another; as for inftance, Lord North was now pronounced to be one of the moft upright minifters that ever lived, who ufed to be one of the most corrupt.-And therefore the prefent loan might be perfectly free from the fufpicion of influence and management, although there were the ftrongeft, fufpicions found against that in the year 1781, and that there were exactly the fame grounds for jealoufy. Of one part of the prefent administration he had undoubtedly the higheft opinion: their integrity, their tried character, their profeffions bound him to rely on their conduct; and he had the beft opinion of their fincere wishes to introduce economy, and to make use of the most perfect fyftem of reform, but he had no idea that that part of the prefent Miniftry, who had done fo much to ruin the country, would now conduce to fave it; and he was therefore afraid that the integrity of the noble Duke would not be enough to guard him againft the weight of corruption, which he expected there would be placed in the oppofite scale. From the noble Duke he expected every thing that undefiled character, pure honour, patriotifm, zeal for the public, firmness, and ability, could produce. If the noble Duke was not much converfant with public speaking, it was not a requifite to be coveted; half a dozen fentences of honeft declaration would go a greater length from a man of his Grace's difpofition, than fpeeches of immoderate length from others; and he would pleafe to recollect, that many, many of the great men of former days were not fpeakers.

The noble Earl then came to examine the grounds on which the proteft complained of the loan of 1781, and the effentials which it held out as the principles on which all loans ought to be made. The loan of that year was protefted against on three different grounds, viz. —the improvidence of the bargain, the corrupt operation, and the partial diftribution of it. To these three heads of objection, his Lordship faid, he should add a fourth, which, in his mind, as much deferved reprehenfion as any thing else belonging to the loan of the prefent year; he meant, that there was to be a lottery; of which he would fay inore before he fat down. His Lordfhip faid, it was a practice for perfons not immediately fkilled in loans, to fufpect a myftery in them, he did affure their Lordships in general, both young

young and old, that there was no mystery in them whatever, and he who affected to make a myftery of them, meant to deceive either in public or in private. A man need not be a great financier, to qualify him for understanding them; nothing could be more fimple and eafy, when once looked at with attention. He faid, it fhould be his business to fimplify what he had to offer respecting them as much as poffible, and he did not doubt, but they would all clearly underftand the matter, before he had done. They had nothing to do, but to bring their minds to confider millions as hundreds, and to enter upon the account with just the same degree of care and confideration, that they naturally paid to their own affairs. His Lordship faid, there wanted nothing but fairness and integrity, to make a good loan in times like the prefent, in times of peace. He then entered into a comparison of the loans made (as he ftiled them) in the happy days of the Duke of Newcaftle, and thofe in the melancholy times, when Lord North prefided at the Board of Treasury; and fhewed what premium the omnium of the fcrip of each bore when the loan had been firft opened. After having gone through the whole, he pointed out the different means that there were of making a loan, viz. by an open fubfcription, by a close one, and laftly by a competition. He enlarged upon each confiderably. An open Loan he talked of as a measure to be adopted only under certain circumftances, and then rather in time of peace than of war. A close one he thought an extreme good method, but then he advised by all means the keeping the fum wanted a profound fecret till the laft moment, to make it with as few as poffible, and to give those few the whole without the smalleft referve whatever. He faid, the benefit to be derived from giving it to a few was amazing, and that he had found it in the contracts. They were in the hands of fourteen or fixteen when he came into office; that he reduced them first to five, and afterwards down to two, and that the confequence was, the public were not only better ferved, but at a lefs price. The reafon was obvious; when a few had the whole, a fmaller profit fatisfied them, because it was exactly the fame, whether a money-lender got a fmall profit upon a large return of capital, or whether they obtained a great profit on a fmall return. Another thing in making a loan, his Lordfhip faid, was to take care to chufe out none but rich and refponfible men, to treat with for it. Such men would make it anfwer the better, by bringing it gradually to mar

ket,

ket, and by buying it in again if it fell too low. As a proof of this, he inftanced one of the Duke of Newcastle's loans, which from fome unforeseen accident, fell to three per cent. discount immediately. The Duke, he faid, was alarmed, and thinking he had made an unfair bargain with those who had taken the loan, fent to convene a meeting of them immediately. The Duke was a good deal frightened as well as the money-lenders, and they knew not what project to hit upon; at length one of them, a very wealthy man, defired the Duke to walk with him into another room. They ftaid out a few minutes, and then he returned with the Duke in apparently high fpirits. They told the other money-lenders to go home, and to make themfelves perfectly eafy, for that care fhould be taken of them. The perfon in queftion went immediately to 'Change, and buying up the fcrip as faft as it was offered to fale, it rofe the very next day one per cent. above par. Having declared he had this fact from the fon of the perfon in queftion who was principally concerned in it, his Lordfhip came to a confideration of the terms of the prefent loan, and entered into a minute difcuffion of what the terms were. The noble Lord faid, he' would endeavour to strip the subject of all its hard names and difficulties and having gone at great length into a statement of the fimple, eafy, and uncomplicated nature of borrowing money by a loan; he examined every one of the plans diftinctly, and gave the preference to a clofe loan by competition, in which no referve was made whatever from the individuals who were to make the bargain.

He went into a calculation to fhew, that in every effential point the prefent loan was made in the most improvident and reprehenfible way; improvident, because the terms were fo much more enormous than they ought to have been, and reprehenfible, not only for the want of economy with which it was managed, but alfo for its being managed for the purpofes of influence. He calculated the terms to be on the first day of its coming into the market, 5 1-half per cent, and on fubfequent days it rofe to 6, 6 1-half, 7, 7 i-half, and even to 8, but the fluctuation was from 6 3-4ths to 7 3-4ths, and the medium was about 7 1-4th. He ftated the feveral component parts of the bargain; and faid the firft great fault in it was, that the Minifter had not taken care to have the proper advantage of felling for time. He had feemed totally to overlook the difcount, and he had not taken the advantage of the competition which there was in the market. To his VOL. XI. knowledge

Y