HOUSE OF LORDS.

Thursday, June 13,

The Committee of Privileges refumed the subject of the Earl of Berkeley's pedigree.

Earl BATHURST ftated, that he had fo late as that day received information of farther evidence, very material to be adduced on the prefent queftion; and it would not be poffible to produce it in the course of this week; he therefore moved, That the farther confideration of the fubject he deferred till Thursday next.

Duke of NORFOLK feconded the motion. He adverted to fome written document in the proceeding, and the advantage of delay, which might afford an opportunity of procuring the attendance of a witnefs to it, who had not yet been produced. He then proceeded to compliment the Duke of Richmond on his attention to the honourable George Berkeley, the rights and honours of whofe family were fo much involved in the prefent queftion; that gentleman was now abfent in a remote part of the Mediterranean, in the fervice of his country-a circumstance which he conceived gave him a claim to the particular care and concern of their Lordships. However painful the delay folicited might prove to the feelings of the parties immediately interested, he thought no confideration of that kind fhould have any weight in the prefent cafe, and that the whole body of the evidence should be laid before Admiral Berkeley for his confideration, and his answer received before the Committee came to a decifion. The gallant Admiral had tendered himself as a witness; but without propofing to poftpone the decifion until his return, he thought him entitled to this indulgence.

Earl of BERKELEY reminded their Lordships, that he had, on a former day, expreffed his own withes, and thofe of Lady Berkeley, to be examined; but as fome doubt was entertained of their competence, he wished them to take the fenfe of the Commitee on that point.

The LORD CHANCELLOR recommended it to the noble Lord to weigh well the confequences, before he perfifted in his request.

Earl of BERKELEY replied, that he had the opinion of Counsel in his favour; and had made up his mind on the fubject,

that Lady Berkeley and himself were competent witnesses, and ought to be examined.

The LORD CHANCELLOR then faid, the standing order of the House requird that the pedigree should be proved; it, therefore, did not mean that his Lordfhip fhould give in a pedigree, figned and authenticated by himself, but that fuch pedigree should be made out by legal proofs. His Lordship then not being a competent witness, neither was the Countefs, for the fame reafon. But as he was preffed for his opinion, in giving it he was forry to be obliged to obfervé farther, that as a wife could not by law be a witness for her husband, neither could he be admitted a witness against him. The noble Lords, when they confidered the evidence already given, would understand what he meant.

Duke of NORFOLK faid, from the little knowledge he had of law, he did conceive his Lordship might be examined. However, as the Countefs would not be called upon until all the other evidence was gone through, he thought it would be then the proper time to discuss the queftion of competence, on which occafion the Committee might be affifted by the twelve Judges.

Earl Bathurst's motion for poftponing the farther proceeding until Thursday next was then put and carried.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, June 13.

Mr. BRAGGE brought up the Report of the Committee refpecting the Courts of Justice.

On the question, That the Refolutions be read a fecond time,

Mr. TIERNEY faid, that the Judges had about 2,000l. per annum, after all deductions for the expences of the circuit, &c. The object of the prefent motion was, to incrcafe their falaries to 3,000l.; this, in his opinion, was an extravagant increase, and he could not, with any confiftency of character, agree to it it was holding out a perilous example, and would give room to claims equally well-founded on the part of the officers of the Army and Navy; the reward of their fervices had not been increafed for one hundred years, while that of the Judges had been already augmented during the prefent reign. He was perfectly willing to grant the Judges every thing which was neceffary for the due maintenance of their dignity; but an increase of 500l. per annum he thought amply adequate to that purpose. When the Affeffed-tax Bill was before the House, he certainly did fay, that as far as it affected the Judges, that we fhould get with one hand no more than we should be obliged to give back with the other: but to give them half as much again as they had before, was what, in the present overburdened state of the country, he could never bring himself to affent to. With regard to contingent penfions, he could fee no neceffity that justified them. A penfion of 2,000l. per annum had this feffion been granted to Sir James Marriott, to reward him for his long and meritorious fervices; and it was rightly granted, by an unanimous vote of the Houfe. This was a proper practice; and why was it not to be perfevered in? By the mode now propofed, the House of Commons would loofe all check and control over fuch remunerations. A man might in future retire under pretence of ill health; and that retirement having re-established his health, he might come out again, as had already been feen, with his penfion in his pocket. This new mode alfo tended to enlarge the influence

of the Crown. It should be recollected, that when objections were urged against finecure places, the neceffity of them was defended on the idea that they afforded an honourable means of remunerating men who had deserved well of their country. To this mode of defence he had no room to object, if they never had been

granted to perfons who had no fuch claim to them. The café of Lord Thurlow was, indeed, in point. His Lordship had given up very extenfive bufinefs at the bar, and it was not to be fuppofed that he would accept of the place of Chancellor without having fomething fecured to him in cafe of a change of Adminiftration. His Lordship had therefore the reverfion of the Tellership, which was no more than what should be granted to a man of fuch uncommon abilities. But had the prefent mode been adopted, his Lordship would have had 4,000l. per annum, and the Tellership of the Exchequer might have been given to another who had no public fervices to justify fuch a reward. To these contingent penfions he would always object, as he would now object to an increase of the falary and penfion of the Judges, though he was not averfe to granting what did not border upon extravagance.

Mr. ROSE faid, that the honourable gentleman muft labour under a misconception when he fuppofed that there was an addition made to the Judges' falaries of 1,000l. per annum. The addition would be found not to exceed 600l. per annum, which would clearly appear when the bill was brought in, and all the particulars of it before the Houfe; it would then be known, that it was the intention of his right honourable friend that the expences of the circuit fhould be paid out of the 3,000l. per

annum.

Mr. I. H. BROWNE contended, that the contingent penfion could refer to the place of Chancellor only as to the increased falary of the Judges, he could not think that it exceeded what was neceffary to the maintenance of the dignity which fhould accompany their fituation. In his opinion the penfions they might enjoy fhould not be inferior to the falaries of which they were now in poffeffion.

Honourable Mr. PERCIVAL faid, that in any observations he had to offer on the prefent queftion, he trufted that he fhould not be fufpected of labouring under any particular bias from profeffional prejudices. What he had to fay was dictated by that independence and freedom of opinion which every Member of Parliament had a right to claim and exercife. The honourable gentleman (Mr. Tierney) who objected to the Resolution, grounded his objection on the fuppofition, that if the falary of the Judges was to be fo confiderably increased, the falary of other public officers fhould be likewife neceffarily increased. Indeed the question feemed merely to be a question of degree, and whether too much was not granted for the nature and extent of the fervices performed. Surely 3,000l. per annum, considered in this light, fhould not be regarded as too

large a fum; befides, the honourable gentleman fhould recollect the wide difference there was between the fituation of a Judge and the perfons alluded to, and the labour and talents that were required to fill it with dignity and ability. They had no laborious preparatory ftudies to go through; no expenfive education to acquire; no confiderable employments or emoluments to relinquish the contrary in every point was the cafe of those who were likely to be called to discharge the functions of Judges. To fill this important fituation, an affemblage and combination of ability, of information, of talents, of character, were defirable; but men poffeffing fuch qualifications which naturally entitle them to extenfive bufinefs and high emoluments, cannot be expected to give them up without there being held out to them fomething like an adequate indemnification and reward. For these reasons he was of opinion, that the propofed falary was not extravagant. As to contingent penfions, the honourable gentleman fhould recollect, that when the prefent business was opened, it was precisely ftated, that if the perfon to whom they had been granted was in poffeffion of any other office, the emolument of it fhould be fubtracted from the amount of the propofed falary. Indeed if the question was propofed, to the country at large, there was not an enlightened perfon, he believed, who would not readily concur in it.

Mr. JONES would not oppofe the refolution, but hoped that, when the higher orders were fo anxioufly attended to, the cafe of the lower orders of public officers would not be entirely overlooked.

Mr. TIERNEY, in explanation, faid, that he never had obferved any difficulty of drawing learned gentlemen from the bar, in order to fill the place of Judges, even when the penfion was lower, and then men equally able and well-informed were known to hold that fituation. He never objected to a Puifne Judge having a penfion of 2,000l. per annum; he would even agree with an honourable gentleman (Mr. H. Browne) that they thould have a pension equal to their falaries, when old age might oblige them to retire. But he was told that the increafe, upon the whole would be but 6ool. per annum; had not, however, the first Puifne Judge 22321. per annum, the next 20461, and the loweft not less than 18001. per annum?-was he not then, well grounded in afferting, that the increase was one half of their falary? No man would be more reluctant than himself to limit the means, that might, enable, the Judges to enjoy all, the comforts and dignity to which their fituation was entitled; but in his opinion 500l. additional was fully fufficient, efpecially in the prefent diftreffed ftate of the country;