circumstances lead us to the necessity for a distinction. It became necessary, when the question was asked, "Are you a Christian ?" and when the individual said "Yes," to ascertain did the individual belong to the common body, or to a private, separate, and particular body? Hence, those who belonged to the common bodyto the society established by Jesus Christ and his Apostles, were called 'Catholic,' because these were, as contrasted with the rest, very general; and the others, as contrasted with them, were private. Now, you can conceive those private sects, or heresies, propagating their doctrines, so as to send for example into other countries. off-shoots from them, so that they might be a little tree of corruption, just as the true Church was a holy vine, of which Christ was the stem, and all the members branches. Now, bear in mind this distinction. You see then that the term Catholic is not a positive, but a relative term, not as indicating that the extension of the Catholic Chuch was universal-the Church was called Catholic, evidently in that sense in which we take it, as a distinctive term-for there never was a time when the Church extended to every part of the world. Now, I pray God to enable you to follow me when I come to the next branch of my statement. I assert, and I am prepared to prove, to the satisfaction of every one present, that while Christ declared that the gates of hell should not prevail against his Church-that it should stand firm as a rock amidst the roaring of the billows, unmoved, undestroyed, and permanent, till it should accomplish the grand purpose for which it was designed-that very blessed Jesus did also tell us that that standing, and that that holding of its ground, and maintenance of its integrity, should be connected with an amazing mystery-and that is, with an apostasy that should overtake the whole Church, so far as it was visible, and that that apostasy should spread itself all over the Church, so that the vine of Christ, originally pure, should in the main bring forth the grapes of Sodom, and the clusters of Gomorrah. I will demonstrate to you that this dreadful apostasy was foretold, and that the nature of it was described-the way it should come in, and the nature of the doctrines it should teach-the place of its seat, and the time that it should continue; that it was described as the most dreadful, the most monstrous, and the most shocking evil that had ever previously appeared upon earth. All this was consistent with the truth that Christ foretold, that the gates of hell should not prevail against his Church; for Christ told us that during the time it should, by its authorized Ministers, teach blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits, he would have a stream of truth running through it, keeping it alive by a few witnesses, so that it never should fail, but who should testify boldly and plainly against the existing apostasy, strengthened by the spirit of the Lord and the power of his might-that these witnesses would be triumphant in their protestations, and bring out a pure and holy church conformed to primitive doctrines, from the midst of a corrupt and apostate mass. I trust, gentlemen, you understand the views I have given to you. Now I know it is sometimes useful to make things plain to the eye, and I shall do so now, so there may be no mistake. I trust I may say that a holy and a happy influence has led me to adopt this means of making myself understood. The demonstration will be subsequent. Give me leave to present this to your view, and to the view of Mr. Maguire,

(Here the Rev. Gentleman displayed the following pictorial representation of primi tive Christianity, under the symbol of molten gold, pure in the beginning, but as it flowed, it became gradually corrupted by the admixture of baser metal, until it Dearly disappeared-when suddenly, on the right side, it is discovered emerging from its obscurity, and flowing forth in all its original purity, leaving the alloy to take its downward course to the left.) I know, (continued Mr. Gregg) my respected opponent will not consider this a very injudicious proceeding, because, as you are well aware, there is a similar sort of thing exhibited in his church-I mean that which is called the tree, or the vine, with its branches spreading in all directions, the fruits of which are the various churches existing in the world. I mean by this [pointing to the gold at the top of the picture] to represent the primitive church

ciples. Let us then consider what is the object of our Christianity. I shall state it briefly to you thus:-Our world is in a state of ruin by nature. We are all the children of fallen parents, and by the law of God we are condemned to destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power, totally unentitled to any, the least portion of Divine favor, in consequence of the apostasy of our first parents conveying to us original transgression, and in consequence of our own practical iniquity, the natural result of original sin. But it pleased God, in the exercise of his infinite mercy and free grace, to determine to reclaim our world from the guilt of sin-to redeem us from the curse, to put us in the way of escaping from the damnation of hell, and of obtaining the privileges and felicity of heaven. The world was completely sunk under the bondage of Satan, and God the Son, came down, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin to condemn sin in the flesh, to reclaim the whole world, so as to make righteousness cover the earth as the waters cover the great deep. It had been covenanted to him that he should obtain the heathen for his inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possessions ; and that, from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, his name should be glorified. In the accomplishment of this great and glorious work, our blessed Lord appeared upon earth, and commenced his work by establishing upon earth a small society taught and instructed in the maintenance of holy doctrines, and commanded to increase and multiply itself according to certain laws, and thus extend itself to every part of the world, and that it should at length cover the whole earth. Now this society is the Church; the law for increasing it by the addition of new members is the ordinance called baptism, by which, as through a door, new members are admitted into the Church; and the law whereby officers are appointed in the Church is called "orders." I think it will be found that my Rev. opponent fairly may agree in my view as to the nature of officers, so far as is essential. Now, established as a society under these laws, the Church in the beginning was pure and holy, and even in the lifetime of the blessed Apostles, it extended itself to such a degree-so far and wide into all the corners of the world-that St. Paul says, "Our sound has gone out into all lands, and our words to the end of the world" That society extended itself according to our histories, even in St. Paul's time, into Britain-some imagine by his instrumentality-others that it was caused by the instrumentality of Joseph of Arimathea; but that makes no great matter, for this is an uncertain tradition, and does not involve any of the essentials of our argument. This Church, then, extended itself, far and wide, even in the Apostles' time. But mark! I would desire to lead you to a very necessary distinction. Even in the very lifetime of Jesus Christ (to whom be glory for ever and ever) we have reason to believe there were divisions among his followers; for we find at one time his Apostles came and told him that they found certain persons "casting out devils in his name," but who followed not with them, and they asked him that he should forbid them; whereupon he answered, "Forbid them not; no man can cast out devils in my name and lightly speak evil of me. He that is not against us, is on our part." This leads us to suppose that if they cast out devils in the name of Jesus, their doctrines must have been according to godliness, although they "followed not with them" (the Apostles) Now that sort of a division is called a schism or split. Likewise schisms in the Church of Corinth have been frequently alluded to by the Apostle, Heresies also were alluded to in the Scriptures-for instance, the heresy of the Nicolaites; and there was likewise evidently a growing up of heresy in the Church of the Galatians, which should lead us to glorify our blessed God; for you perceive, my dear friends, how he has made the wrath of man to praise him; had not these heresies then existed, we should not have received those godly cautions contained in the Scriptures, which we derive therefrom, there sprung up along with the society of Jesus other small societies; they were called after the names of private individuals-for instance, Paul or Apollos; then there were the Nicolaites, the Cerynthians and Donatists, if indeed these can be considered heretics. Now, these

eircumstances lead us to the necessity for a distinction. It became necessary, when the question was asked, "Are you a Christian ?" and when the individual said "Yes," to ascertain did the individual belong to the common body, or to a private, separate, and particular body? Hence, those who belonged to the common bodyto the society established by Jesus Christ and his Apostles, were called 'Catholic,' because these were, as contrasted with the rest, very general; and the others, as contrasted with them, were private. Now, you can conceive those private sects, or heresies, propagating their doctrines, so as to send for example into other countries off-shoots from them, so that they might be a little tree of corruption, just as the true Church was a holy vine, of which Christ was the stem, and all the members branches. Now, bear in mind this distinction. You see then that the term Catholic is not a positive, but a relative term, not as indicating that the extension of the Catholic Chuch was universal-the Church was called Catholic, evidently in that sense in which we take it, as a distinctive term-for there never was a time when the Church extended to every part of the world. Now, I pray God to enable you to follow me when I come to the next branch of my statement. I assert, and I am prepared to prove, to the satisfaction of every one present, that while Christ declared that the gates of hell should not prevail against his Church-that it should stand firm as a rock amidst the roaring of the billows, unmoved, undestroyed, and permanent, till it should accomplish the grand purpose for which it was designed-that very blessed Jesus did also tell us that that standing, and that that holding of its ground, and maintenance of its integrity, should be connected with an amazing mystery-and that is, with an apostasy that should overtake the whole Church, so far as it was visible, and that that apostasy should spread itself all over the Church, so that the vine of Christ, originally pure, should in the main bring forth the grapes of Sodom, and the clusters of Gomorrah. I will demonstrate to you that this dreadful apostasy was foretold, and that the nature of it was described-the way it should come in, and the nature of the doctrines it should teach-the place of its seat, and the time that it should continue; that it was described as the most dreadful, the most monstrous, and the most shocking evil that had ever previously appeared upon earth. All this was consistent with the truth that Christ foretold, that the gates of hell should not prevail against his Church; for Christ told us that during the time it should, by its authorized Ministers, teach blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits, he would have a stream of truth running through it, keeping it alive by a few witnesses, so that it never should fail, but who should testify boldly and plainly against the existing apostasy, strengthened by the spirit of the Lord and the power of his might that these witnesses would be triumphant in their protestations, and bring out a pure and holy church conformed to primitive doctrines, from the midst of a corrupt and apostate mass. I trust, gentlemen, you understand the views I have given to you. Now I know it is sometimes useful to make things plain to the eye, and I shall do so now, so there may be no mistake. I trust I may say that a holy and a happy influence has led me to adopt this means of making myself understood. The demonstration will be subsequent. Give me leave to present this to your view, and to the view of Mr. Maguire,

(Here the Rev. Gentleman displayed the following pictorial representation of primitive Christianity, under the symbol of molten gold, pure in the beginning, but as it flowed, it became gradually corrupted by the admixture of baser metal, until it nearly disappeared-when suddenly, on the right side, it is discovered emerging from its obscurity, and flowing forth in all its original purity, leaving the alloy to take its downward course to the left.) I know, (continued Mr. Gregg) my respected opponent will not consider this a very injudicious proceeding, because, as you are well aware, there is a similar sort of thing exhibited in his church-I mean that which is called the tree, or the vine, with its branches spreading in all directions, the fruits of which are the various churches existing in the world. I mean by this [pointing to the gold at the top of the picture] to represent the primitive church.

and we are also told, upon the authority of Eusebius, an authority which I have here upon the table, and to which the Rev. gentleman can refer if he pleases; we are told by Eusebius, that when St. John went to the bath in Rome, accompanied by Polycarp, and saw Cerinthus the heretic there, he begged of Polycarp to run out with him lest the bath would fall upon and destroy them. So that here we see how those men who set themselves up against the Church of Christ, who followed the dictates of their own private and fallible judgments were condemned. These "silent witnesses" who were banished out of the Church of Christ for their heresies and impurities, soon began to protest and establish Churches of their own, and those are the very heretics, self-choosers, whom my Rev. friend, from his principles, will be obliged to connect himself with. In the Book of Revelations, St. John the Evangelist, by order of Jesus Christ, in communication with one of the Churches in Asia, recommends one of the Bishops, because of his conduct in censuring those Nicolaites, of whom we have heard so much from my Rev. friend; St. John the Evangelist thus wrote, Revelations, 2 chap. v. 6., "But this thou hast that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaites, which I also hate,"—and yet those are the very men with whom he wants to connect himself by his advocacy of the right of private judgemnt-men who were condemned by the whole Church of Christ, and which condemnation proves to a demonstration the power which she always exercised in condemning refractory members, and lopping off all rotten branches.

When Arius, that arch-heretic, set up a school for himself; when he set up his own private judgment in opposition to the church, when, following the dictates of that private judgment, he denied the divinity of Jesus Christ, who condemned him? Why the Roman Catholic Church. A council was called--his doctrines were condemned, and he was banished, and seven bishops with him from the pale of the Catholic Church, and cut off from all participation in her sacraments, and that sentence of condemnation and excommunication is approved of by my Rev. opponent and his church, for they have acknowledged the power, and have adopted the creed of that very council by which Arius and his party were condemned. Now, I want to know, will my Rev. friend connect himself with Arius and his followers? will he claim to belong to those to whom alone his church, and her doctrine of the right of private judgment can be traced?—and from whom but such heretics can she derive her title to unity, sanctity, catholicity, and apostolicity. Oh! but he calls himself one of the branches-for he says that his church is "a branch of the true church;" but she has been cut off; she is a lopped off branch; and we all know that a lopped off branch can never flourish-where will it get the sap to nourish and support it? No, my Rev. friend; if you wish to flourish you must stick to the head-and the head is Jesus Christ. Never was I so astounded-never did I feel for, or pity my friend so much for I respect talents, and I admire the manliness with which he came forward upon this occasion-never did I, I say, feel more pity for him, than I did when he told you that Christ said, "That the gates of hell should never prevail against his church:"-" I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it;" (Matt. c. xvi. v. 18.) and then in one and the same breath he added, that notwithstanding the promises of Jesus Christ there was (( apostasy "-apostasy in what? why in that very church against which, according to the promises of Jesus Christ, her divine founder, the gates of hell should never prevail; but yet he tells you, gentlemen that notwithstanding these promises, an apostasy the most awful, and most general, did spring up in that church-that the gates of hell did prevail against her, and that she became an apostate. However, I suppose, that when my Rev. friend comes to explain that inconsistency, he will tell you that the gates of hell did not prevail against it; for although the apostasy was to take place, and did take place, yet that a stream of pure doctrine never ceased to flow, invisibly indeed, but still it flowed, and that therefore the gates of hell did not prevail against the church. He will tell you this in order to excuse his church for the blunder which she committed, when she declared that for

800 years and more" before the Reformation, there was not a man, woman or child, bishop or priest, learned or unlearned, that was not buried in dark, dismal, and damnable idolatry. Luther himself has declared, that not a single individual existed for 1000 years before his time, that was not sunk in the deepest and most damnable idolatry and superstition-and that during the period of 1000 years there was not, in the whole world, a true professor of the Gospel of Christ; that is to say, that the promises which Christ, the God of truth and justice, made to his Church had failed-and that for the period of 1000 years, there was not a true professor of his creed throughout the whole world. My Rev. friend tells you that the meaning of the word "Catholic" is not that the faith of Christ is spread over the world, but that it is to be spread over the world.

Rev. Mr. GREGG.-No, no.

Rev. Mr MAGUIRE.—I beg of you not to interrupt me, you can reply when I am done. I have not interrupted you. He tells you that the church did not spread over the world, and that it never spread over the earth, but that it ought to spread over the whole earth, but I assert that the Apostles put the word "Catholic" into the creed, as a distinctive mark of the Church being spread over the earth, and in order that the most ignorant might discover where they might go to be taught the doctrine of Jesus Christ; it is a distinctive appellation by which the true Church can be discovered amongst all other Churches-now what is the meaning of the word “Catholic? It means, that of all Christian societies in the world-the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ will immeasurably exceed all other Churches in its extent, so that it will be manifest to all who wish to discover it; it is a mark set upon the true Church, so visible, so easily discernible, that even a fool may discover it-and cannot err therein. "And a path, and a way shall be there, and it shall be called the holy way; the unclean shall not pass over it, and this shall be unto you a straight way, so that fools, shall not err therein."-Isai. xxxv. v 8. But let me ask, how will a fool find out the truth by the many paths which the right of private judgment has opened? will the map which my Rev. friend exhibited, direct him? How will he be able to find out the true Church of Jesus Christ? My friend's map would not give him the slightest information, he would be as much as ever astray even with that for his guide. My friend again tells you that the Protestant Church, established in England and Ireland, is the true Church of Christ; but I tell him that it is not, and to show him that I am correct in making that broad assertion, I beg to refer him to the 15th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, and he will see there, that when Paul and Barnabas were preaching to the Antiocheans, they were opposed by some from Judea and others from Antioch, who maintained that circumcision was necessary to salvation, "And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved-when therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of them, should go up to Jerusalem, unto the Apostles and Elders about this question-and when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church. and of the Apostles and Elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sects of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses; and the Apostles and Elders came together for to consider of this matter, and when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up and said unto them, men and brethren, ye know how that a a good while ago, God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the Gospel, and believe, and God which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul. After they had held their peace, James answered, saying, men and brethren, hearken unto me, Simeon hath declared how God at the first, did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name. Then it pleased the Apostles and Elders with the whole