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capitalists, they have to pay 6} per cent mittee will see from the table that the in rupees owing to the fall of exchange. amount is not 28. per head. When it is The lines which have been guaranteed remembered that the amount of taxation in recent years have been guaranteed at which is borne by the people of this 4 per cent, and even at the present rate country is £2 108. per head, I think that, of exchange it is not likely that these as far as one can estimate from figures lines will cause any increase of the loss of this kind, it must be admitted that which the Government has to bear. the taxation imposed upon the people of

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: Will the India is very slight indeed. I do not hon. Gentleman distinguish between the deny that even light taxation may, earnings of the old guaranteed lines and under certain circumstances, be burdenthe new guaranteed lines ?

some; but I venture to say that the SIR JOHN GORST: I have not got Government of India, on the whole, is the figures by me which would enable one of the most beneficent Governments me to distinguish between the two; but which the world has ever witnessed ; my opinion is that it is some of the old that the Government is, on the whole, guaranteed lines, such as Madras lines, well administered, administered in a upon which the great loss is incurred. more true sense for the benefit of the I should like to call the attention of the governed than has been any other GoCommittee to the existence of railways vernment the world has ever witnessed; in India in regard to which there is no that it is, on the whole, one of the Government guarantee, and to point out justest and most equitable Governments that the chief of these is the Bengal and which history gives us any account of; North-Western Line, which has only and that, so far from the people of recently been opened. It was opened, India having any ground of complaint I think, in 1886. The net return is 3.63 because they are under the rule of Great per cent, and the Stock of the line has Britain instead of under the rule of stood up to a very recent period above the tyrants who held sway over them par. It is true that the Stock has fallen before the advent of British rule, the in the course of the last month to 97, Natives of India have very good reason three points below par; but I think that to be grateful for the establishment and is owing to some anxiety on the subject continuance over them of our beneficent of traffic. Traffic has now improved, Government. and I have no doubt that the Stook will again stand above par. I point this out

Motion made, and Question proposed, because a great deal has been said in before this House, that the Total Revenuo of

“That it appears, by the Accounts laid this House and the country about the India for the year onding the 31st day of advantage of encouraging the railway March 1886 was £74,464,197: that the Total system in India, and if capitalists would Expenditure in India and in England charged venture to invest their capital in the to Revenue was £77,265,923 ; that there was same way as in this country without £2,801,726 ; and that the Capital Outlay on

an excess of Expenditure over Revenue of Government guaravtee, they have the Railways and Irrigation Works was £5,276,364, example of the Bengal and North- besides a Capital Charge of £1,086,045 involved Western Railway, which shows that in the Redemption of Liabilities."—(Sir John they would have a very fair profit for Gorst.) their money, and they would be able to Mr. R. T. REID (Dumfries, &c.); develop the railway system of India Mr. Courtney, I shall endeavour, as I without imposing the burden upon the know the time of the Committee is finances of India which guarantees en- limited, not to use any superfluous tail. Now, the only other point to which words. I rise for a particular and defiI think I need direct the attention of nite purpose ; but, in the first place, I the Committee is one which was antici. wish to join the hon. Member for Northpated, to some extent, by the hon. Mem- ampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) in his expresber for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh). sion of extreme regret that the Indian I have put in a table on page 19 to show Budget has been brought on this year the burden of taxation upon the Indian at a later period than in any previous people. I put it in because in this year. It is perfectly true that previous H se it is very common to speak of the Governments have been off rs taxation of the people of India as if it regard to this matter; but it is also the were extremely burdensome. The Oom- case that a Resolution was passed by

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the Houso two or three years ago, at the of things. Let us see what are the instance of the hon. Baronet the Mem-causes of this deficiency, because the ber for the City of London (Sir Robert causes deserve more notice than the Fowler), deprecating the great delay to facts of the decrease themselves. In which the Indian Budget was sub- the first place, Afghanistan has cost us, jected. I am sorry I do not see the for the Quetta force, about £2,100,000. hon. Baronet in his place to renew his Now, taking the whole three years protest. Passing from that, let me together, the Delimitation Commission notice the last words of the hon. Gentle- --the Commission which has been on man the Under Secretary of State for the frontier of Afghanistan-has cost India (Sir John Gorst). There are few nearly £500,000. So much as regards people who would dispute that the Indian the expenditure on account of the Government is beneficently and justly Afghan scare. Then we come to Burmah. adıninistered on the whole, and ad- Now, the expedition to Burmah was an ministered with a desire to do what is | enterprize of the noble Lord the Mem. right towards the people of India. But ber for South Paddington (Lord Ranthe objection wbich is made is that the dolph Churchill), who seemed, at the Government is an extravagant Govern- time the expedition was undertaken, to ment, extravagant far beyond the capa- be absolutely master of the situation. bility of the country to sustain, and | As soon as he got into Office be and that it is a Government which is carried the Viceroy of India, with the consent of on without an opportunity of coming in the remainder of the Government, led touch with the feelings and opinions of India into Burmah. Now, we the people, and that it is, further, a Go-told that the work was to be done for vernment absolutely despotic in its cha- £300,000, and that it was only a matter racter, which this House is quite un of two or three weeks. I am thankful willing to control from the lack of time. that I personally protested against the That is the objection to the Government expedition at the time; the whole of India, not that its object is bad, but country, however, was thinking of somethat we do not take pains to make that thing different--it was thinking of the Government as effectual as it might be, General Election, and not thinking of and that in consequence the Govern. the expenso which would be thrown ment is extremely extravagant, and that upon the unfortunate people of India the finances are in a very serious con- by the Burmese enterprize. What dition. Let me say a few words with is now the contention of the hon. regard to the financial part of this Gentleman the Under Secretary of maiter. The Statement which is laid State for India ? The statement is that before us tells us that there is a de- the difference between the expenditure ficiency on the Financial Accounts of and income from Burmah amounts to a 1885-6 of £2,800,000 in round figures. deficiency of £3,900,000; and the hon. The Revised Accounts state that there was Gentleman spoke with no hope of altera surplus in 1886-7 of some kind; I am ing that state of the accounts. The told it should now be £60,000 or more. hon. Gentleman knots as well as I do As regards the Budget Estimate of that there is no prospect of ever making 1887-8, we are told in the published Upper Burmah oven pay her own way. Statement that there was to be a small Those who are familiar with the counsurplus; but now it is admitted that the try are persuaded there is no chance, at Revised Estimates show, as far as they any rate, for many years to come, of go, a deficit of between £600,000 and Upper Burmah being able to pay

her £700,000. Therefore, notwithstanding own way. These are two the panegyric the hon. Gentleman (Sir deficiency. These deficits are due to John Gorst) has delivered on the Go - policy; like all financial disorders, they vernment of India, we have this state of are, in the main, due to an erroneous and things-that in the first year of thu extravagant policy. Partly they are due three years we are dealing with there is to the absence of economy in internal a deficiency of £2,800,000; in the second management; but they are still more year it is said that there is a surplus of due to the fearful wars and enterprizes £60,000; and in the third year there that are entered upon without any is a deficit of £600,000. That cannot reasonable control over them by the be considered to be a satisfactory state Government of India whenever some

causes of

"Jingo” spirit becomes impossible to £3,000,000. Such are the causes of keep under. What are the expedients these deficits, and the expedient by which resorted to for the purpose of meeting the Government endeavour to restore these deficits? These deficits have to equilibrium is ono most gravely to be be met in some way or other. When reprehended, and one which it is imdeficits of this kind take placo you may possible for anyone to sympathize with. borrow money, or you may impose I have said so much with regard to the fresh taxation. Now, everybody knows particular figures of this year, and I have that a high authority on Indian finance said it without the smallest attempt to has stated that you cannot impose fresh shelter one Party at the expense of antaxation, notwithstanding the vaunted other Party, for we have nothing whatsmallness of the taxation per head of ever in Indian finance to do with Parthe population. The hon. Gentleman ties. I believe that in 1886 the samo will not contradict me when I say that expedient to restore equilibrium was substantially you have reached the limit adopted, and therefore the Party to of taxation in India. He will certainly which I belong are equally at fault. I be different from any other Under So- think in this House we ought to know cretary if he denies that statement. At nothing at all about Party in our dealany rate, you have not attempted to ings with matters concerning India. impose new taxation. What has been | Let us consider the state of matters in the done has been done in another way, | last 10 years. The hon. Gentleman the which is extremely significant. Accord-Member for Northampton (Mr. Brading to Sir Auckland Colvin's Report, the laugh) pointed out that thero had been deficiency has been mot by taking from a large increase of expenditure in the the Famine Insurance Fund the amount last 10 years. “Yes," said tho hon. necessary. That is the expedient to Gentleman the Under Secretary, in the which the Government are reduced ; short reply he made to my hon. Friend and now let me say one word as when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair, to the Famine Fund. Although I " but that is due to railways.” Now, hare no doubt every hon. Gentleman I am sure the hon. Gentleman did not present is acquainted with the nature say that advisedly, because he did not of the Fund, still, everybody may not show what has been the increased exbe acquainted with it, and it is as penditure upon matters other than well that the country should know what railways. In the first place, I find the Fund really is. The Report of the that in 1876 the total Expenditure was Famine Fund Commissioners, which was £57,750,000, and that in 1886 it was presented to the House in 1880, showed | £77,250,000, or a rise of £19,500,000 that in the last 30 years there had been in the space of 10 or 11 years. But firo famines in India, of which three let me go into details. In the first year There intense famines, and in the last that I have named-I am leaving out, of of these, that of 1876-8, no less than course, all sums which are less than 5,000,000 persons perished. It was £100,000–in the first year, 1876, the stated that theso famines were of a Army Services were £15,700,000, but recurring character, and the Commis- in 1886 they were £20,000,000. Noir, sioners recommended that an annual that is not railways ; there is an increase sum should bo set aside for the pur- of £4,300,000 on the Army. pose of meeting them. The

SIR JOIN GORST: In consequence which has been systematically and of the fall in exchange. sacredly devoted to the purpose of sup

Mr. R. T. REID: Whenever one plying the needs of the people in time of criticizes these things, he is always refamine is now appropriated by the Go- ferred to the fall in exchange. It is the vernment for the purpose of restoring same story over and over again; we are financial equilibrium. *According to my always told that if such and such things judgment, the causes of these deficits are had not occurred everything would havo very serious. The causes are ill-judgod been all right. That is the kind of thing enterprizes, profligate expenditure upon I have heard repeated year after year wars, which have been so under-esti- in relation to the Indian Budget. The mated that one, which it was said would Government of India are bound to cut cost but £300,000, has already landed us their coat according to the cloth they in an expenditure of far more than have; and if we notice great deficits, if


we find great increase in military ex- | Fawcett, and it has been also pointed penditure, it is no answer_to say out by evidence given before the Finance that it is due to exchange. I think Committee which sat from 1871 to 1874, the hon. Gentleman will, on reflec- that the staple of Indian Revenue is of tion, see that the difference between the most insecure character possible. the two items I have quoted is not due The Land Revenue, of course, is very to the fall in the rate of exchange, be- elastic, and it has risen very little in the cause a great deal of the money-indeed, 10 years ; it has risen £1,000,000, and if not the whole of it-is paid in India. that is all, and it cannot be expected to At least, it is so in regard to the salaries rise more, because the system in operaand expenses of the Civil Service; tion there is a system of fixed rent for a there is no question of exchange in such period of 30 years. With regard to the cases. The salaries and expenses of the Opium Revenue, everybody knows it is Civil Service rose from £10,300,000 in dopendent upon the trade which you can 1876 to £12,200,000 in 1886. What is make for your opium; and if, for the meaning of this ? The meaning is example, we come to difficulties about extravagance, absence of proper control, the opium trade with China, does any. and, if I may say so in this House, a one believe that at the present day public systematic neglect by this House of its opinion in this country would allow us duty towards India in dealing with In- to go to war again with China in order dian finance, and in supervising the to bolster up the opium trade? Of course, officials who instruct the "hon. Gentle- opium is the most precarious revenue man the Under Secretary of State for you can have. Then the Salt Revenue is India. Of course, the hon. Gentle one which is open to most of the diffiman can do no more than repeat that culties and most of the objections that which the permanent officials, who are can be raised almost against any revenue. the tyrants of India, are good enough A man with £100,000 a year only pays to put into his mouth. Let me come to as much by way of Salt Duty as the man the charge of collection-that, at least, with £50 a-year. So oppressive is the is entirely spent in India. The charge taxation that one of the Predecessors of of collection has risen in the most extra- the hon. Gentleman said that the repeal ordinary way. In 1876 it was £6,600,000, of the Salt Tax would confer


the and in 1886 it was £9,800,000. There people of India as great a boon as the is a spring of 50 per cent in the course repeal of the Corn Laws conferred upon of 10 years. Then, again, superannua- the English people. I must say I was tion allowances and pensions, things rather surprised the hon. Gentleman which always go up, have risen from (Sir John Gorst) drew a picture from £2,100,000 to £2,900,000. I say no which one would suppose that nothing

with reference to the Expenditure, but plenty and prosperity existed in Inbecause I have promised to compress my dia, from which one would suppose that remarks as much as possible." I have the Indian people were an under-taxed only given one or two samples of the people. Now, the best proof that India chief items of Expenditure, to show is over-taxed in comparison with the that the Expenditure has increased all power of the people to bear taxation is through. Now, a word or two with that the very necessary of life, salt, is reference to the Revenue. The Revenue taxed to such an extent that it is a has not shown similar elasticity. The grievance to the people of India, accord three chief items of Revenue in India are ing to the admission of an hon. Gentleland, opium, and salt. In the case of man who, at the time he made the statethe land there has been an increase of ment, held the position of Under Secre£1,000,000 in the period given; in tary of State for India. It is a grievance opium the increase, I think, has been to the people of India equal in its inci£200,000; and in salt the increase bas dence to what the Corn Laws were to been £100,000; and I should like to the people of England. Now, Sir, I say, as regards railways, that while an have endeavoured to show that the increase has been incurred in expendi- Revenue is unelastic; that the Expenditure, the increase of revenue—and the ture is growing; that there is an imposincrease has been enormous-has kept sibility of now taxation ; and I should pace with it. But this does not exhaust like, in the face of these facts, to put a the matter. It was pointed out by Mr. possibility which I hope will not take

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place. I put it for the purpose of in the past; but the interest on money showing what is the real condition of spent in India is expended in England, Indian finance. Suppose that any great whereas the interest on money borrowed strain came; suppose there was an in- by the Government for this country is Fasion through Afghanistan, or that spent in this country, and, of course, there was some great catastrophe, or that makes a great difference as regards some great war, in which we required all the resources of the nation. It seems our resources. Why, Sir, there would to me that we are bound to listen to be no nest-egg to fall back upon. We his. We are bound to listen to the have habitual deficits; we have had a best advice and opinion we can get from deficit in two out of the three years the Indians themselves. I distrustunder consideration; and, as far as I can not because I distrust the men, but see, there is no branch of the Revenue because I distrust their judgmentfrom which the hon. Gentleman can give Anglo-Indians thoroughlyin this matter. us reason to hope there will be any great Those gentlemen, familiar, no doubt, increase of Revenue within a measurable with the details of Indian life, of course distance of time. The country is taxed have more opportunities of gauging the to the full extent, and the margin be- condition of India than a thoroughly tween Revenue and Expenditure is at independent witness in this country; but best so small that there will be nothing they are all pledged to a system. If whatever to fall back upon like what you you speak to almost any one of them-of have in this country to fall back upon. course, with here and there an In this country there is great wealth, ception-you will find that they are all and taxation in proportion to the power pledged to the lips in favour of a bureauto bear it is so light that you might easily cratic and despotic system of Goextract something for a great emergency. vernment, a system of Government There is one subjeot which gives us which in India is a benevolent desserious cause for reflection, and that is potism, I'admit, but still a despotio the increasing quantity of money which bureaucratic Government, because it is is being remitted from India to England a Government not controlled by any. every year. There is, in the Statement thing in the nature of representation, as to which I have already referred, an is the Government of this country. The account of the Bills drawn by the Secre- Native Congress, to which reference has tary of State. It will be found that been made by the hon. Member for there has been within the last 10 or Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh), was full 15 years a large increase in the Bills of the most interesting and valuable introduced by the Government for India suggestions. I believe a great many of in this House. It has been suggested the recommendations made by the by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Natives are worthy of adoption. Amongst Evesham Division of Worcester (Sir other things, they ask that there should Richard Temple) that he is accredited be some means in India of questioning with having estimated that the annual the Government as regards the adminisdrain from India by this country for tration of the affairs of the country, what you may call the tribute-though and that there should be some mathod I do not mean to say that it is a servile in England for controlling the expenditribute-but that the sum sent from ture of the money which is drawn from India to England is £30,000,000 every the people of India. They ask that year, without any equivalent being there should be a Standing Committee sent back. Part of that, no doubt, is of this House to hear appeals from Local sent sometimes in return for money in- Bodies against the Executive Governrested, and comes in the form of Home ment of India in matters of finance and charges. I do not mean to say that that administration, where it was thought is the amount drawn by the Secretary of that this House would be competent to State, for that is only some £17,000,000 control the decisions of the Indian Goor £19,000,000 annually ; but the hon. vernment. I am not going into detail Member to whom I have referred says, on that subject, which is one of enormous I think, that this is the total drain, and importance in itself; but this I am represents that money sent to this going to say—that I have endeavoured country from India. It is quite true that to get the Government to listen to a for that there has been some equivalent proposal to have some sort of Committee

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