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THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR said, although it might be inconvenient THE COLONIES (Sir Henry HOLLAND) to the House, and to hon. Members who (Hampstead): If possession is taken it wished to take part in the discussion, to becomes a British Possession.

press the Amendment, he did want to SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: The state the reasons why he made this proreal difference between us is as to the test. They were now far advanced in word “possession." I say that “pos- the month of September. Last year this session"

means “possession,” and that matter was taken into consideration on "occupied,” in the old Act, means

Act, means the 21st of June, the year before on the "i occupied.” The Secretary of State 6th of August; and he would suggest for the Colonies, on the other hand, to the House that it was not worthy of uses the word “declared,” and says that them to leave to the last moment of the “possession” is anything that Her Session the sole opportunity afforded to Majesty has “declared” to be posses- Parliament in any way of taking into sion, say, by the hoisting of a fag, or consideration the grievances of the by some act of that nature. The right 200,000,000 of people over whom we hon. Gentleman contends that declaring claimed to rule. If we had claimed to territory to be British territory amounts rule over them as a despotism he could to, or is equivalent to, taking possession have understood it. They were cynior occupation. I rely on the English cally told by the noble Lord the Member language. I say that possession " for South Paddington (Lord Randolph means possession,” and that “occupa- Churchill) that in India there was no tion" means “occupation,” and that public opinion, and no power of the merely declaring unknown territory to Pressbe a British possession does not make it a British possession. The former Act India you have no public opinion to speak of

“In India it is not as it is in England. In only enabled you to deal with “posses. you have no power of the Press. You have sions” occupied by British settlers. That hardly any trammels upon the Government of is the plain meaning of the former Act. any sort or kind.”——(3 Hansard, [300] 1302.) I cannot be satisfied by the opinion of the Law Officers. I think this clause is he submitted it was disgraceful that the

This was only an additional reason why an enormous extension of the previous Act. It extends that Act by enabling question should be taken as the eighth Her Majesty to make rules and regula

order of the day in an empty House on tions not only for bond fide Settlements, one of the last days of the Session. It but for vast territories of which no

was by no means certain that the Secrə. actual possession has been taken, but tary of State for India exercised, or had on some corner of which our flag has

the means of exercising, any real control been hoisted.

over Indian affairs. If-as he was bound That is an extension of the powers given to the to assume—the answers given in this Government by the former Åct, and it is House from time to time on Indian one against which I must protest.

questions were founded on information

furnished by the Viceroy, then it was Clause agreed to.

clear that the subordinates of the ViceRemaining Clauses and Schedule roy were reticent to a degree that was agreed to.

utterly misleading to this House, and Bill reported; as amended, to be con- probably equally misleading to the Sosidered To.morrow.

cretary of State. The Indian papers INDIA-EAST INDIA (REVENUE AC. hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of

nearly all agreed in representing the COUNTS) – THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

State for India (Sir John Gorst) as

utterly ignorant of the affairs of our COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read.

Eastern Empire, and although doubt

less they were wrong to entertain that MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton), belief, it remained true either that in rising to move

officials in India did not communicate “ That this House regrets that the only occa- to their superiors at home many sion afforded for submitting to its consideration matters of moment, or that the facts any statement of the wishes or grievances of the Natives of India should be postponed to so

were withheld from this House. The late a period of the Session as to prevent fair Natives of India believed they had a consideration of such wishes and grievances," serious array of grievances, which they

enormous

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thought ought to be considered by the sculty that stood in the way of Civil Ser-
House. At two National Conferences, vice employment. Dr. Rajendralála
the last of which they held in Calcutta Mitra said-
last December, they were full of loyal

“ The question is, that we should send our expressions. They regarded British rule children, at the age of 16, 5,000 miles away as giving them opportunities for pro- for three years together for the purpose of gress which Native rule would deny to passing an examination of the strictest possible them ; indeed, the President of the Con- | kind. The odds are against them, the prizes

are few, and the blanks numerous, and the gross pointed out

risks of sojourn by youths without guardians “How impracticable any such representative in a large Metropolis, teeming with temptation, and all - class - and - creed. embracing meeting are most serious. Parents must be foolhardy would have been under any previous régime, indeed who, in the face of these facts, will Hindu or Mohammedan ; and asserted that it venture to sead their children to England at was under British rule, and British rule alone, the age of 16. But suppose the age is raised that such a national gathering was possible.”

by iwo years. Would that satisfy all your

demand? I say, nay. For the service of one's But they looked, at the same time, for country, in no part of the world is a person the removal of some of those hardships cailed away from his native land to pass an under which thoy suffered. The serious examination. Canada is under the British Godeclaration was made that among the

vernment. But her Majesty the Queen Em

press does not require that every French subIndian population there was continually-ject there shall go to England to pass an increasing poverty. They wished for examination before being admitted into the representative institutions; and though Canadian Service. Nothing of the kind is rethat subject was too large and too wide quired in the Cape Colonies, nor in Australia

, to be discussed before empty Benches, true of any other country which is a foreign

nor in Ceylon. And what is true of them is and at that period, he was prepared to dependency. Why then should the case be maintain that so long as Parliament different in India alone ? The rule here is denied India representative institutions, that no man should be allowed to serve the so long did it böcome the special duty of await him in England, without having to ex.

country without running the great risks which Parliament to examine most carefully patriate himself for three years, and come homo into the grievances of the country, and to be excluded from caste. This is a great grievo give the people there no cause of com- ance too, and it is one regarding which every plaint that consideration of subjects of Hindu and every Mohammedan gentleman has importance to them had been avoided.

a right to make a strong protest.” The people of India complained that the He (Mr. Bradlaugh) did not intend to expenditure for which the Government press further quotations of the same of India was responsible was wasteful character from the speeches made at and extravagant, and they pointed to Congress; but he would urge that it the fact that whereas in the period be was not upon our military domination tween 1875 and 1879 the average annual of India that we ought to rest, or try to expenditure was 56,800,000 of tens of rest, in the future. Our rule ought to rupees, in 1885 it was 71,077,127 of be secure by attracting the willing cotens of rupees, and it now amounted to operation of the Indian people. There 77,443,500 of tens of rupees. They also could be no object in making the Natives pointed to the fact that in the same cross the ocean, losing caste and inperiod the debt of India had grown curring risk to health, if we wished to immensely, being in 1885 £173,752,206, interest the Indian people in our rule by an increase of about £83,000,000. An- affording them Civil Service employment. other matter about which they com- In the evidence taken before the Indian plain bitterly was that they were de- Public Services Commission-admirable barred from filling positions which they service on which was being rendered by were competent to fill, but which were Sir Charles Turner—there was to be at present occupied exclusively by found case after case of the grossest Europeans. They alleged that we had injustice in every Department. Could wilfully and deliberately broken the they wonder that when it came to a pledges we had made to them, and he question of cost the Natives saidwas bound to say there was some ground" Why do you put us to this cost when for the complaint they made. He would in many Departinents our own men take the statement of the President of could do the work better and cheaper ?” the Conference to which he had alluded, It was only in the lowest class of as showing the Native view of the diffi- executive offices that the Natives were

allowed to have any employment at all. neering, who all passed from Indian In the Departments where they were Colleges, and though fully qualified employed they did their work satis- were utterly unable to obtain employfactorily. He hoped the right hon. ment because excluded by Europeans. Gentleman the First Lord of the Trea- With regard to Burmah, the hon. Memsury (Mr. W. H. Smith) would take ber said he did not intend to now resome means to have the Indian State- discuss the annexation of Upper Burmah, ment made at some earlier period of the though he was opposed to it. Having Session next year, so that it should not taken the country, we ought to act be the farce that it was to-day in being honestly towards it; but he maintained discussed before empty Benches, and so that we had not been acting honestly to that the discussion should be creditable Burmah, to the Indian people, or to the to a great nation governing 200,000,000 British taxpayer. He was going to human beings. The Natives complained suggest to that House that, so far as that we had broken the express promises they were able to judge from the Papers as to employment made in the Procla- before them, and—what was equally mation, repeated in our Statutes, and eloquent-the information which was reiterated in the Regulations made by withheld, they were not acting honestly the Secretary of State in Council. Wit-in regard to Burmah. A statement had Desses proved that in the Education appeared in The Times the other day Department services paid for to Euro- with reference to the sale of lands in peans at 1,200 to 1,500 rupees per Burmah. It was alleged-and he bemonth would be equally well rendered lieved it to be true—that the responsible by Natives at 70 rupees per month. officer in Burmah had sold land to Evidence was given that European In- British officials at a price much less spectors and Assistant Superintendents than 1-100th part of its value, and it were in many cases failures, and was sold privately, without any oppor.

“That many of the best Inspectors, who tunity for competition. He suggested happened to be Natives of India, had left the there ought to be no sale of land to any force from disgust at their treatment."

British official whatever until the matter In the Registration Department it was had been submitted to the Secretary of shown that appointments were made to State at home. If the statements in the superior posts of persons of British birth, Indian Press had any colour of truth whose only qualifications appeared to be in them, there were gentlemen who that they were poor relations of high had had comparatively large pieces officials. In the Telegraph Department of land at prices absolutely ridithere appeared to be a perfectly mon- culous. He could understand that strous excess of Assistant Superinten- we wanted to colonize Burmah with dents, nearly all British. In the Police persons dependent upon us ; but the corDepartment a class of gentlemen In- ruption which appeared to be raging spectors created in 1880, all in that country at present ought to be British, though the evidence showed checked in the manner he had sugthat the Eurasians, Natives,

and gested.

He would therefore suggest Mohammedans made excellent detec- that no private sales of land or other tive officers, and were fitted in every beneficial concessions ought to be perway for higher posts. Major Drever mitted to any person whatever without advocated the promotion of deserving the previous sanction of the Secretary of Inspectors, irrespective of colour or caste, State for India, on a special report to be to posts now occupied by a favoured made to him of all circumstances consection-and for this he met with the re- nected with each proposed sale. The sentment of the Government. In the question of the teak forests had already Public Works Department promotion is been noticed by the Viceroy, who menalleged to be by favouritism, and to the tioned that the circumstances connected almost entire exclusion of Eurasians with the leases held by the Bombay and Natives from higher posts. Turn. Trading Corporation were very unsatising to the engineering employment, factory. It was this Company which, there were a large number of Natives more than any other influence, had inwho have properly qualified as Assistant volved us in the Burmese War. He Engineers, Licentiates of Civil Engi- recommended that no new lease or conneering, and Bachelors of Civil Engi- tract should be made with the Bombay VOL. OCOXXI. (THIRD SERIES.]

D

was

Trading Company or anybody else with affairs of India had come up for discusreference to the teak forests without sion was shared by the Government and some more complete report being made those who sat on the Ministerial side of to the Secretary of State and the matter the House. He (Sir John Gorst) bebeing fully examined. Coming to the lieved everyone would be glad if it were Ruby Mines, it was a little hard to possible to bring the affairs of India speak on the subject with the respect under the consideration of the House at due to the Government. There was not a time when more Members were prea reply which he had received from the sent, and when greater interest could ba hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of taken in the matter. Although many State for India, except, perhaps, the last promises to introduce the Indian Finantwo, which was not more or less flatly cial Statement earlier in the Session had contradicted by the Parliamentary Paper been made, no Government had yet that he held in his hand. In the first succeeded in fulfilling those promises; place, they were told that there was no and ever since he had had a seat in the lease from the Indian Government to House the Indian Budget had been one Messrs. Streeter; but the Papers showed of the incidents of the Session that had that there was an actual signed agree immediately preceded the Prorogation. ment between the two parties. They He agreed with the hon. Member as to were told that this document was not a the desirability of the alleged grievances lease ; but such a draft so signed by of the Natives of India finding expresboth parties could have been enforced sion in the House of Commons, and tho in this country as a binding contract more so because he thought that on in. and converted into a leaso. Messrs. vestigation many of them would be found Streeter's representatives were actually really not to be substantial. He would introduced to the Natives in this mining take two alleged grievances to which the district as the people who had already hon. Member had alluded—the increase got a concession granted to them by the of Expenditure and the increase of Debt. Government. Messrs. Stroeter went to It was supposed by the hon. Member the mines, and actually half built houses that the incroase of expenditure was an there. As regarded the future of these increase of extravagance, and that the mines, the idea of conceding the sole increase of Debt was an increase of burright to anybody was suicidal, for if den. That was not the case. The inanyone bad capital at his back he would crease of Expenditure was caused by the simply clear out of the place every pos- great development of railroads, canals, sible jewel he could get without regard and other productive works. The Debt to the interests of the Government. was certain to increase rapidly, and it He would suggest, therefore, that the was undesirable that a stop should be put Government should see that these mines to it by checking the expenditure on were made as profitable as possible for railways and works of irrigation. In the taxpayers both of this country and like manner the increase of Debt meant of India. The Government ought to increase of capital supplied by the capitakeep the mines in their own hands, to lists of this country, and expenditure on have every ruby sold by auction, and to public works was beneficial to India as let the Natives have their 30 per cent well as profitable to this country. As of the value for collecting them, that to the complaint of the non-employment being the percentage they got under of Natives in large numbers in the Public King Theebaw. In conclusion, he said Services, that was exactly the subject on he did not intend to move the Amend. which a Commission had been sitting for ment which stood in his name, becauso some time. The hon. Member soomed he felt sure that hon. Members were to be gratified by the fairness with which anxious to go into Committee and to evidence had been received by the Comhear the statement of the hon. Gen- mission, and it was obvious that the Gotleman the Under Secretary of State. vernment must wait for the Report of

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF that Commission and consider the evi. STATE FOR INDIA (Sir John Gorst) dence taken by it before they entertained (Chatham) said, that the regret which any reforms in the direction of admitting the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Natives to the Public Services in greater Bradlaugh) had expressed with regard to numbers. As to the allegation that the late period of the Session at which the Natives were excluded from the more highly-paid posts, one-sixth of them of the mines would be given to anyone were filled by Natives, and they were until their value and all rights and inteadmitted in still larger proportions to rests had been ascertained, and the Guthe less remunerative and uncovenanted vernment would only make such a disbranches of the Service; and, indeed, in position of them as would be compatible those branches the greater majority of with the public interest. No one had the positions were held by Natives. any object in parting with these mines With regard to the alleged purchase of for less than they were worth, and in land, it was one of the rules of the Indian the interests of the Revenue of India the Service that no official should be allowed utmost value would be got for them. to buy land in his own district except as Instead of expressing any apprehension, a site for a residence. In the case to it might have been expected that the which attention had been called the Go hon. Member would rather have congravernment had called for a Report; and talated the House on the vigilanc) that if anything improper had occurred, the was being exercised. Secretary of State might be depended Question put, and agreed to. upon to take such steps as were neces

MATTER -considered in Comunittee. sary to vindicate the purity of the Indian Service. As to the teak forests, when

(In the Committee.) Upper Burmah was occupied it was THE UNDER SECRETARY OF found that the Trading Company had STATE FOR INDIA (Sir Joux GORST) acquired rights from King Theebaw, and (Chatham): Mr. Courtney, I will not the British Government could not con

waste any precious time in Committee fiscate those rights wholesale and deal by appealing to hon. Members for that with the Company as if no such rights indulgence which is always extended to had been acquired. All that the Go- those in the position which I occupy. I vernment could

was to protect the may say, also, that I hope the Statement interests of the Revenue of India, with which I ventured to circulate a few days due regard to equity and justice. As to ago will enable me to shorten my rothe Ruby Mines, when the present Go. | marks, and help the Committee moro vernment came into Office they found | easily to understand the present position that already dealings had taken place of Indian Revenue. I propose to make between the Government of India and some observations in explanation of the Messrs. Streeter. In April of last year Paper circulated, and afterwards to coa. tenders had been called for from persons fine myself to replying on any questions willing to take a lease of the Ruby Mines. with regard to the Revenue of India

MR. BRADLAUGH said, there was which hon. Members may think it necos no evidence of that in the Papers. sary to raise. I want, first, to observe

SIR JOHN GORST said, it appeared that on the face of the Statement the that on the 27th of March, 1886, the prospect is not a very prosperous one. Viceroy telegraphed to the late Secre- of the three years which are under our tary of State that the representative of consideration, 1885.6 shows a large Messrs. Streeter had made the highest deficit, and 1886-7 and 1887-8 show far offer for a lease of the Ruby Mines. It too small a surplus; but I am happy to was not a violent inference from this say that the condition of the finances of that tenders had been asked for. When India is not quite so bad as the appearthe present Government came into power ance of these figures would lead one at a telegram was sent from the Secretary first sight to suppose. Although the of State to the Government of India in deficit in 1885-6 is put down in my these words—

Statement as 2,800,000 tons of rupees, "I gather that the arrangements are not that is not the real actual deficit. That finally concluded. The value of the mines and is to say, India is not poorer by 2,800,000 of the rights of the Government should be care- tens of rupees; because, if hon. Gentlefully ascertained before pledging the Govern- men will refer to 1887, they will s99 ment. Keep me aware of the results of local that in this year not only has the inquiry."

sum of 683,498 tons of rupees been spent That telegram, which was sent on the in the reduction of debt, but 589,000 10th of November last, had not been and 500,000, making a total of 1,089,00) departed from, and the negotiations in tens of rupees have been investod in the India biust be guided by it. No lease construction of railways, and 186,807

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