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would take care of their own money. He | lected by the rates to any schools over regretted that any opposition should be which they had no supervision. This raised to his proposal on the score of clause asked the House to set that prodenominationalism. It had no more to vision aside, and to give money to do with denominationalism than the schools over which they had no control most opposites in nature had to do with whatever. The money once parted with, each other. He could not, for the life of how were they to tell what the school him, see how the Roman Catholics would did. They might apply a certain portion benefit by such a provision in the promo- of it to what they called technical edution of their religion. It was not for the cation, and that was a right subpromotion of religion in any form what-ject. But in these schools education ever, but simply to help people to acquire knowledge connected with the arts and industries of the country, and enable them to compete with other countries. He was sorry that such an idea should have been broached in connection with this Question, and that it should have come from a Representative of one of the Divisions of Glasgow-which had always been in the forefront of religious freedom-to once again fan into flame the smouldering embers of religious bigotry and intolerance. He trusted the House would pay no attention to these suggestions. In order to meet the difficulty, he was prepared, if the Government would accept his clause, to add a proviso to secure that these schools should not, in any way, have anything to do with any other kind of education except technical instruction. To meet these difficulties, which he held to be chimerical, and unworthy of any intelligent man in the 19th century, he would suggest the addition, at the end of the clause, the words-"giving exclusively such instruction-namely, technical instruction." If the clause only gave that, he (Mr. Mason) failed to see how it could be connected with religion or denominationalism.

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Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a second time."

MR. PROVAND (Glasgow, Blackfriars, &c.) said, he could not follow his hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lanark (Mr. Mason) over the ground he had covered in advocating this Amendment. He hoped the Government would not accept that Amendment. The question was very clear in Scotland. In Scotland they had compulsory education; but, nevertheless, the school board did not pay one farthing of the money col

might be given of a kind that the school board did not approve of. The effect of the proposed clause would probably be to bring into existence a class of schools from which, in course of time, the allowances would have to be withdrawn, and then they would die out, or else they would fall into the condition of the Glasgow Weaving School, which his hon. Friend had referred to. His hon. Friend had told the House that there were 50 trades in Glasgow which would start technical schools, and this he must say was a nice prospect for the ratepayersthat they should be asked to hand over money to any school up to the number of 50 in a town. His hon. Friend had not stated how the allowance was to be made, nor under what conditions. Referring to some interruptions made in a conversational tone by Mr. Mason, who was sitting next him, the hon. Member said he would sit down and allow his hon. Friend to resume.

MR. MASON said, he simply wished to say that the money was in the hands of the school boards now, and they could impose what conditions they thought proper when they gave it. They would have absolute control over the giving of the money, and the matter would be entirely in their hands. They could give it to one, two, three, four, or five trades, as they thought proper.

MR. PROVAND said, that what the hon. Member wanted would be done by the Bill as it stood, except that the board would have control over the technical schools. If this clause were introduced a large number of schools would be established, for which the school boards would be called upon to provide the funds, but over which they would have no control. With regard to schools over which the school boards had control, at the present time there were three technical schools in Glasgow, including one large one, and in Manchester there was a large one and one or two struggling

ones.

In London there was one large for the purpose of assisting any volunone, and there might be two or three tary school in doing compulsory work, others of which he was not aware. There and he therefore asked if Parliament were not many technical schools carried ought now to reverse the principle, and on throughout the country; and after establish the principle of enabling this Bill became law there would be school boards, out of the rates, to give only as many schools as the school assistance to voluntary schools for what boards thought necessary, and could was purely voluntary work. That was provide the money for. He also found the distinction they had already adfault with the clause of the hon. Mem- mitted, that the whole of the rates should ber for Mid Lanark because it did be applied equally to those schools which not say how the assistance was to be were under the direct management of given-whether annually, whether in the school boards, and they had refused one sum, by tools, by erecting buildings, authority to the school boards to give or in what way. They were really bound any assistance to the voluntary religious not to call into existence a class of schools denominational schools, that were doing which from the first would be in a what he might term compulsory work. chronic state of poverty and dependent His hon. Friend the Member for Mid upon charity; because, as soon as they Lanark (Mr. Mason), who had moved could call on the rates for money, so soon the clause, stated that he could not would they get nothing from voluntary understand where the argument came subscribers. As the Bill would carry in about the Roman Catholic Schools. out the very object which the hon. It came in this way. It was not a quesMember had in view, he hoped the tion of religion at all. The Roman Government would not accept the Catholics had been saying for years that clause. It was not intended that this at the present moment in Scotland they should be a final Bill. They were were doing compulsory work. They were to a large extent acting and speak- saving the rates, and yet they were paying ing in the dark as to what technical the whole of the expenses of their teacheducation was; and, if in Scotland, when ing, because voluntary schools did not they had discussed this Bill sufficiently, get one farthing of assistance out of the they discovered that it did not cover all local rates. To show how far religion the ground it was desired to cover, it had to do with this matter in Scotland, would be perfectly easy for them to have he would point out that the board schools an amending Act passed next year or there were Protestant schools, that the the year after. Scottish people objected to what they termed godless education, and therefore in all their schools they had religious instruction. The Roman Catholics, on the other hand, said they were compelled as ratepayers to support the Protestant schools, where the Protestant religion is taught, and being also averse to godless education, were compelled, out of sheer necessity, to establish schools of their MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. own, where the Roman Catholic religion Rollox) said, he wished to point out to was taught under the same table clause the House that an important principle as in the board schools. In Scotland, a was involved in this Motion, the prin- Roman Catholic child had not one whit ciple being whether school boards more advantage of instruction in Roman getting money from the local rates might Catholic religion than the Protestant be authorized to give contributions out child had. The teaching was prescribed of those rates to schools not under their by the time-table, just exactly in the management. That principle cut in two same way as in a board school. The Prodifferent ways. Technical teaching under testant child might attend that day school this Bill would be a voluntary subject. the same as the Roman Catholic child Under the Elementary Act they had attended the Protestant school. If they compulsory education in Scotland. Par- admitted the principle that a school liament had not sanctioned in the case board might, out of the local rates, subof compulsory education, which was the sidize a voluntary school doing volunmost important, the giving of local rates'tary work, upon what principle could

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR (Kincardine) said, he considered the clause a very harmless one. As to the religious question, he pointed out that the school boards were composed of too many Protestants to admit of the fears which were entertained in regard to the Catholics. He hoped the opposition to the clause would not be pressed.

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they refuse to give to a Roman Catholic | cognized by Parliament and the country. school a subsidy out of the local rates To try to interject a new condition was, when they were doing compulsory work, he submitted, a most serious matter. and saving the rates the expenses of If the Government did sanction this providing school accommodation, which principle, they must do it in the full but for the existence of these voluntary knowledge of the extent to which it was schools they would be bound to provide? likely to lead them; and if the principle It was not that the assistance out of the was sanctioned this Session, the Governlocal rates would confer any special ment could not complain if the argubenefit on the Roman Catholic schools, ment was brought forward next Session because at the present moment the local in the case of those other voluntary rates prescribed Protestant teaching for schools doing compulsory work; and if the Protestant community, and it would those schools made a demand to get a simply be putting the Roman Catho- contribution out of the rates in respect an equal footing with their that they did compulsory work. Then Protestant brethren. What, at the pre- it was stated there might be 50 trades in sent, was the hardship? Take the case Glasgow which required assistance in the of the Roman Catholics in Glasgow. technical schools. That showed the They paid to provide Protestant reli- gravity of giving powers of this kind. gious instruction for the Protestant If assistance was given to one trade, how population in Glasgow out of the rates, would it be possible for the school board and at the same time they have to pay or the Scotch Education Department to the whole expense of the education of stop at that one trade, and not give their own children, without getting one it to every trade that made applicasingle copper from the rates for the pur- tion? There were more than 100 trades pose. They had been arguing strongly in Glasgow. Why should not each one against this injustice; and what had of these trades get a subsidy of £100 the answer been? The answer to them a-year? There was an annual expendihitherto had been thus-"We cannot ture of £10,000 in the City of Glasgow out of the local rates give to you a con- alone. They were starting a principle, tribution for a school which is not the seriousness and extent of which they under school board management. All did not know. He did not think that rates must be devoted solely to those was the way to promote technical educaschools which are under the management tion. It was not done by grants of of the school board." That principle public money. Let them leave to prihad been stated over and over again. vate enterprise to carry on their schools, If the Government now said that a giving them assistance out of the Imschool board might apply the school perial Exchequer if they showed certain rates to the purpose of assisting volun- results; but it was an entirely new tary schools in teaching what were principle to give a single penny out of purely voluntary subjects, then the the local rates to support schools not argument was so much the stronger for under the management of the school getting the assistance in the case where board. they were doing compulsory work. He would point out to the Government the immense principle it was here sought to be established, and he could not but think it was unfortunate that a proposal of this kind should be left to the end of the Session, when nearly all the Scotch Members were away, and when there was not sufficient time left to have the matter thoroughly discussed. A principle of this kind was an entirely novel one, and it was a principle which, he submitted, at this period of the Session was one which the Government should not for one moment entertain. It was sufficient for them to carry their Bill according to the ordinary principles re

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster): I wish to say a very few words on this question, in the hope of putting an end to the discussion. I have listened with considerable interest to the observations which have fallen from hon. Gentlemen from Scotland. It was with great sympathy that I listened to the observations that fell from the hon. Member for Mid Lanark (Mr. Mason). I understand his aim is to give encouragement to those who take a warm interest in education itself, and who may, therefore, be presumed to be well fitted to foster that education, and to carry it forward, and attain the objects

our best to shape it so as to make it acceptable to the people of Scotland.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirkcaldy, &c.) said, he had been keeping his mind open on this question, because he confessed he did not understand it so well as he did some other subjects. He hoped his hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lanark (Mr. Mason) would accept the sympathetic words of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, and not press the clause.

MR. MASON said, he was of course quite aware that, unless he got the support of the Government, it would be idle for him to press the clause to a Division. He just wished to say, in withdrawing the clause now, that he had no doubt the people of Scotland, and of Glasgow in particular, would take note of the reasons why the clause had not been carried.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third

time."

we all have in view. I sympathize very much indeed with the aim and object of the hon. Gentleman. But I have to consider whether, under all the circumstances, it is reasonable and fair that a proposal of this kind should be introduced into a measure which hitherto has been, I may say, accepted cordially, and almost unanimously, by the Mem bers for Scotland. I have to consider whether having regard to the fact that this proposal is obviously opposed to the feelings of some hon. Gentlemen. from Scotland, and probably to the views of those who are not in the House on the present occasion-it is quite fair or quite desirable that the clause should be introduced into the Bill on the present occasion. Now, I have come to the conclusion that, on the whole, it would be desirable that this clause should not be introduced into the Bill now. I do not say that because I have the slightest objection to the principle which is involved in the clause. It is one which, I think, deserves the very fullest consideration of this House, and the aim and the object of the hon. Gentleman deserve the fullest sympathy of all who are themselves desirous of forwarding and assisting the cause of education. We can work best, in my humble judgment, through the agency of those who are content and willing to make some sacrifice of their own in order to forward the objects which we have in view. I am, therefore, individually by no means opposed to the principle of subsidizing the efforts of persons devoted to the cause of education itself. But, as I said just now, I have to consider what would best forward the interests of this particular time, and what is, on the whole, most fair to the Representatives of Scotland who are not in the House at the present time. I think it would be hardly fair to them in their absence to put into the Statute Book the recognition of the principles involved in this clause. Therefore I venture to hope that the hon. Gentle man will be content with having raised SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirka very interesting discussion, reserving caldy, &c.) said, he had to complain to himself full power to introduce a that the Bill was an enormous addition measure next year, if he thinks it right to the power of extending British to do so, to amend this Bill, when I laws by the mere act of the Execan assure him the Government will cutive over new territories, and somegive the most careful consideration to times over unexplored and unknown his proposal, and at the same time do territories. He must raise an objection

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL said, he wished to take the opportunity of congratulating the Government on having got the Bill through the House He believed it would be a useful experiment, and he was very glad the Government had pressed this Bill forward instead of attempting to make the Allotments Bill as it stood applicable to Scotland.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time and passed.

BRITISH SETTLEMENTS BILL [Lords].
(Sir Henry Holland.)
[BILL 369.] COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."-(Sir Henry Holland.)

to the construction given to the phrase "British Settlement" in the 6th clause, declaring that any British possession not acquired by cession or conquest should be deemed a British settlement. He thought this was a fictitious meaning of the latter term, and was calculated to encourage the spread-eagle tendencies of annexation by the unauthorized planting of the British standard in distant territories. He had also to complain that the Bill, like a previous one, had been read a second time at a very early hour in the morning.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Sir HENRY HOLLAND) (Hampstead) said, that with all the respect which he had for the opinion of the hon. Member, he could not bring himself to set the opinion of the hon. Member upon questions of law, and construction of an Act, above that of the Law Officers of the Crown. Now, as he (Sir Henry Holland) had said a few nights ago in reply to the hon. Member, they had advised that, if possession were acquired of New Guinea by the Proclamation of Sovereignty, that territory, not having been acquired by cession or conquest, would be a British Settlement, and come within the Act 23 & 24 Vict. c. 121. So far, then, as New Guinea was concerned, it would come within existing Acts, and the Bill made no difference. But then the hon. Member contended that there was a dangerous extension of the existing law by the definition of "British Settlement," and that this Bill went beyond the 1st section of 23 and 24 Vict. c. 121. That contention he (Sir Henry Holland) entirely disputed. That section extended the provision of a former Act

"To all possessions of Her Majesty not having been acquired by cession or conquest," and the 6th clause of the Bill, now under consideration, did nothing more than declare that a British Settlement meant a "British possession which has not been acquired by cession or conquest." It only defined the possession which was not acquired by cession or conquest as a settlement. The hon. Member appeared to have altogether overlooked the fact that the territory must have become a "possession" before the question whether it was a British Settlement within the Bill arose; but that really disposed of his argument about the Bill making vast unknown

territories British Settlements for the first time. He was afraid he could never hope to convince the hon. Memher, and he must content himself by assuring the Committee that the Bill was exactly on the same lines as the earlier Act, and did not extend it, and that it was in accordance with the opinion of the Law Officers.

Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 and 2 severally agreed to. Clause 3 (Delegation of power by the Queen).

On the Motion of Mr. E. ROBERTSON (Dundee), the following Amendment made-In page 1, at end of clause, to add the words—

"Provided always that every such instrument or instruction as aforesaid shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as

conveniently may be after the making and enactment thereof respectively."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Power to the Queen in Council to confer jurisdiction in certain cases).

On the Motion of Mr. E. ROBERTSON, the following Amendment made:-At end of Clause, to add the words

Council made in pursuance of this Act shall be "Provided always that every Order in laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as conveniently may be after the making thereof."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 (British possession and settlement).

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirkcaldy, &c.): As to this clause, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Sir Henry Holland) says that I have not convinced him; and I am certain that he has not convinced me. He relies on the opinion of the Law Officers. We have not seen that opinion in its entirety; but, so far as we know anything about it, we know that it is an exceedingly cautious opinion. It amounts to this-that as New Guinea has not been ceded or conquered, if possession of it is taken it must be taken as a British settlement. Those are the words we have in print.

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