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concessions. He thought that it was of past servico; (b) and as to the acceptance of an extraordinary part of the Rules of employment by officers who receive any part this House that whereas every other of such sims or have commuted the right to Bill could be blocked, a Bill which gave tion, whether by way of salary, superannuation

receive the same; and (c) as to the remuneraaway the money of the people, it allowance, or otherwise, to be receivod by the may be for generations, could not be said officers for any such employment; and tho blocked. This Bill, he argued, was a Treasury may in such rules providó for the good one when it was introduced, but sion, or reduction of any such pay, payment or

enforcement thereof by the forfeiture, suspenhad been spoiled by the Amendments remuneration as aforesaid or of any commutawhich the Government accepted.

tion money." MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The Now, it seems to me that that clause hon. Member is not entitled to go distinctly gives great power to the Treathrough the Amendments and discuss sury, and powers which the Treasury them seriatım until they have reached ought to have - namely, laying down Committee.

the terms on which half-pay and retired Sie GEORGE CAMPBELL said, the pay are to be received by officers in the observations ho was about to make were Military and Naval and other Services. of a general kind. The Amendments In my opinion, rules of the character altered the character of the Bill en indicated by the clause as it stands are tirely.

very much required in the interests of Question put, and agreed to.

the Public Service. There is no Bill considered in Committee.

penditure thrown upon the ratepayers

for which the country gets so little re(In the Committee).

turn. Indeed, it is a most extraordinary Clause 1 (Grant of gratuity or allow- system, by which young men in the prime ance to injured civil servants) agreed to. of life are retired on large pensions. Clause 2 (Power to grant retiring friend of my own, who, although under

I may mention the case of a military allowance to persons removed). Amendment proposed,

40 years of age, and not having served

for 20 years, has been retired at £400 In page 2, line 4, at end, add the following : a.year; and I take it that if this -“ Provided that the Treasury before making clause is omitted, such a case as that the grant shall consider any representation which the civil servant removed may have sub- cannot be dealt with within the four mitted to them.”—(Ni. Jackson.)

of the Bill. The question Question, " That the words proposed is not whether it is expedient that

these be there added,” put, and agreed to.

should be retired; but

what are the terms and conditions on Clause, as amended, agreed to.

which they are to be retired, and the Clause 3 (Reckoning of temporary terms ought to be such as to enable the service); Clause 4 4 (Compassionate country to get some benefit from their gratuity on retirement of person not future services. I know that this is a entitled to superannuation); and Clause very delicate question, and the officers 5 (Provision against double pensions) who go away with a retired pension do agreed to.

not like to be placed under conditions Clause 6 (Regulations as to officers which make it difficult for them to go

where they like and to do what they receiving half-pay or retired pay).

like. I can only say that in my SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk: opinion it is most ossential that the caldy, &c.): I rise for the purpose of Treasury should have power to frame expressing my great disappointment and rules for the regulation of half-pay surprise at the proposal which I under- and retired pay on retirement. stand is about to be made to omit this

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREAclause. I had entertained a great hope SURY (Mr. JACKSON)(Leeds, N.): It is that the Bill as it stands would have quite true, as the hon. Member has said, been carried. The clause as it at pre

that, as the clause was originally drawn sent stands provides that,

it might have been read and, in fact, was "(a) The Treasury may frame rules as to the read by those concerned as giving the right to receive any sums granted by Parlia

Treasury power to frame rules in regard ment for the ulf-pay or retired pay of officers of her Majesty's daval and military forces or

to the receipt of their pay. Now, that for any other payment to such officers on account was the intention of the Treasury. It




intended that rules should be ascertained, what I did not know before, framed to regulate their employment that there is a precedent for the clause, and the conditions under which they and that it exists in the Superannuation should take service, and an alteration Act of 1879. At the same time, I has been proposed in the wording for still entertain a strong objection to the purpose of giving effect to the the clause, original intention of the Treasury. With SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: Is the regard to the wording of Clause 6, in clause to stand part of the Bill withmy humble judgment, it really does not out amendment ? affect the question very much, either one MR. JACKSON: Yes. way or the other. What really affects SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I am the question is the rules which are to quite content. be framed under the clause. The rules Clause agreed to. have been carefully considered. The hon. Member has had an opportunity of

Clause 10 (Laying of warrant and seeing those rules, and I hope there is minutes before Parliament), Clause 11 nothing in them to lead the hon. Mem- (Definitions), and Clause" 12 (Short ber to suppose that we are going to titles) agreed to. impose on the State an increased burden Clause 13 (Repeal). which is an unreasonable one. The

MR. JACKSON moved to omit certain rules have been framed with a view of words which gave power to make rules making a concession to the officers-to under the Bill, fixing the date from enable them and to encourage them to which the repeal of the Acts mentioned take Colonial employment under the in the Schedule would operate; the effect Home Government. With this explana of the omission being that the repeal tion, I beg to move the omission of the would operate as from the passing of clause, and I hope the hon. Gentleman the Bill. will not press his opposition.

Amendment proposed, in page 5, line Amendment proposed, “ To leave out 9, to leave out from “Act,” to “withthe Clause"-(Mr. Jackson.)

out,” in line 10, put and agreed to. Question proposed, “ That the Clause stand part of the Bill.”

Question, "That the words proposed SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: By the negatired.

stand part of the Clause," put and courtesy of the hon. Gentleman I have been allowed to see the rules, and as far

Clause, as amended, agreed to. as they go I have no complaint to make On the Motion of Mr. Jackson, the in regard to them. On the contrary, I following New Clause agreed to, and added think they are very good rules so far. to the Bill after Clause 5:What I do complain of is that they do not (Regulation as to Officers receiving half-pay or go far enough. I think that something of retired pay, 33 and 34 Vic. c. 96.) this kind is very much required indeed. “ (1.) The Treasury may, within one month I do not think we shall have efficient after the passing of this Act, frame rules as to rules made in regard to the service of the conditions on which any civil employment retired officers so long as the matter is by this Act, or any employment of profit under

of profit under any public department as defined allowed to remain in the hands of the i the Government of any British possession, or Military and Naval Departments. It is any employment under the Government of any necessary

that some independent Depart. Foreign State may be accepted or held by any ment should step in and frame the rules. person who is in receipt of or has received any

sum granted by Parliament for the pay, halfQuestion put and negatived.

pay, or retired pay of Officers of Her Majesty's Clause 7 (Provision as to lunatics), ment for past service in either of such Forces


Naval or Land Forces, or otherwise for payand Clause 8 (Distribution of money or who has commuted the rights to receive the not exceeding one hundred pounds same, and as to the effect of such acceptance or without probate) agreed to.

holding on the same pay or sum, and the Clause 9 (Decision of Treasury).

Treasury may in such rules provide for the en

forcement thereof by the forfeiture, suspension, MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, or reduction of any such pay or sum as aforeS.W.): I have put down a Notice on

said, or of any commutation money or

muneration for such employment. the Paper to omit the clause ; but I do

" (2.) Such rules shall also provide for the not propose to move it, because I have returns to be laid before Parliament of such


officers accepting employment as are affected has almost become to be considered a by the rules, and shall come into operation at semi-established practice. If the clause the date of the passing of this Act.

“ (3.) The rules shall be laid before both is to be inserted in the Bill, I would Houses of Parliament forthwith.

move to insert the word “ legal” before 14.) For the purposes of this section the word “rights." • British possession

means any part of Her GENERAL Sir GEORGE BALFOUR Majesty's Dominions out of the United (Kincardine) supported Kingdom, and this section shall apply to Cyprus and expressed his regret that his hon,

the clause, as if it were a British possession.' Mr. JACKSON moved to insert, after Friend had raised any question in regard

to it. Clause 9, the following Clause :

SIR JOHN PULESTON (Devon"Nothing in this act shall be construed 80 as in any way to interfere with the rights exist- port): Surely my hon Friend (Sir ing at the passing of this Act of any civil ser

George Campbell) does not seriously Fant then holding office."

desire to deprive any civil servant of Now Clause (saving for existing in such rights as he had when he took terests,)-(Mr. Jackson,)-brought up,

office. The clause, I believe, has been and read a second time.

proposed by the Secretary to the Motion made, and Question proposed, Treasury as a concession in deference " That the Clause be read a second

I am sure it cannot be the intention of time."

my hon. Friend to do away with absoSIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: May Ilute rights which have been existing, point out that this clause is almost and which belong to the civil servants. identical with one-a very innocent look. I hope my hon. Friend will not press ing clause—which has cost the Indian the Amendment. Government millions of money. The Sir GEORGE CAMPBELL: I think clause I refer to declared that nothing I have no other alternative. I beg to in the Act should be construed so as to move the insertion of the word “legal” interfere with the rights which existed before the word “rights." at the time of the passing of the Act. Amendment proposed to the proThis clause is almost identical, word for posed New Clause, to insert the word

. while many new advantages were given (Sir George Campbell.)

" legal” before the word “rights."to the officers, the whole organization of the Army was altered, and the officers,

Question proposed, “That the word claiming the letter of the law, were able legal' be there inserted.” to add their old rights to an entirely MR. JACKSON: I hope that the new state of things, and consequently hon. Member will not press the Amendwere able to receive a retiring payment. The object of the clause is to enormously in excess of what was con- secure to existing civil servants the templated under either the old or the rights which they have acquired. It new law. As a matter of fact, a sort was never intended by this Bill to injure of "sea-lawyer's" construction was put the existing rights of any individual. upon the clause. I am not at all sure I am not able to distinguish very much that the clause the hon. Gentleman is between a man's rights and his legal now proposing to insert is not a very rights; but I will say at once, frankly, dangerous clause, and I wish to know that the Government accept this addiwhether the words "rights existing” tion to the Bill with the distinct object are strictly confined to legal rights ? I of securing the existing civil servants believe that the practice of those who the rights which they at present possess. insist on the insertion of a clause of this As the Government have accepted the kind is to insist upon rights which they clause in that spirit, I hope the hon. may have had under the practice of the Member will not insist upon his AmendOffice, but which are not strictly legal ment. He has referred to the case of rights. What I am afraid of is that India; but I may point out that the words that practice may be made legal under inserted in that Act were much wider and the Bill, or that under a general clause covered a great deal more ground than of this kind civil servants may claim a any words it is proposed to insert in this great deal more than they are entitled Bill. The words in the India Bill were to. They have done so already, until it to the effect that the civil servants were to be entitled to the like pay, pensions, said, the object of the clause was to allowances, and privileges, and otherwise enable school boards to assist technical as if they had continued in the service of schools, apart from those they established the Government. The Committee will themselves. In Glasgow there was a therefore see that those words were number of such schools, which it would much more extensive than those which be difficult for the Board to take over, are proposed to be inserted here, and and it would further be difficult for the such a clause, if inserted here, would school boards of Glasgow and otherindus. very much extend the intention and trial towns in Scotland to set up schools meaning of the Bill. I hope the hon. giving technical instruction which would Member will not press the Amend- cover all the various trades of these ment. The clause is simply intended towns. What he wished to secure by to carry out an undertaking which this clause was that the school board the Government considered themselves should have power to assist schools which bound to give.

had been set agoing by the various trades SiR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I do themselves. This was not a question not see why the Government should which should cause any controversy or oppose the Amendment. There can be difficulty. A question had been raised no difference between “rights" and that it might do so, and that it might legal rights," unless it is intended to stimulate the old flame of denomina. give to the civil servants something be- tional education. He could not see how yond their legal rights. I must say such a thing could take place. The that the words of the clause, so far as object he had in view was not to give they go, are just as wide as those of the instruction of a character which had Indian Act. In that case the civil ser- anything to do with denominationalism vants not only get their existing rights, or religion in any shape or form. He but all other rights-new rights and new simply wished to enable the school privileges far beyond their old rights. boards to help those who were trying to Question put, and negatired.

help themselves and to better themselves Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill. in the world, and to put this country in

a position to combat foreign competition Schedule.

by giving the technical education which On the Motion of Mr. Jackson, the was absolutely required in order to keep following Amendment made :-In page our position among the nations of the 6, line 33, to leave out “ the whole world. He had observed 25 years ago Act so far as unrepealed," and to we were falling very much behind in insert “Sub-sections four, five, and six the race in connection with technical of Section six."

instruction as compared with the ContiBill reported ; as amended, to be con- himself for having

called attention to the

nental nations. He took no credit to sidered To-morrow.

matter. That credit was mainly due to

a very intelligent and enterprizing TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) citizen of Glasgow-Mr. David Sandi. BILL.-[Bill 358.]

man-who started a technical school in (The Lord Advocate, Mr. Solicitor General for 1871, which had done a great deal of Scotland, Sir Herbert Macwell.) good to the City of Glasgow, but which

was now very much pressed for funds,

depending upon the generosity of merBill, as amended, considered.

chants in Glasgow and elsewhere. He MR. MASON(Lanark, Mid), in moving

would call hon. Members' attention to the following New Clause :

a paragraph which had appeared in the

Glasgow newspapers on Thursday, and “Subject to the conditions under which a which contained school board may provide and maintain a tech-annnal report of the Glasgow Weaving

an extract from the nical school (so far as such conditions are applicable), a school board may (with the consent School. It was stated thatof the Scotch Education Department, and on “ The school was the outcome of a meeting such terms and conditions as that Department held under the presidency of Mr. William Rae may prescribe) provide technical instruction by Arthur, Lord Provost of the City of Glasgow in assisting from the school fund in the mainten- 1871, when the first movement was made toance of any school giving inclusively such in- | wards the promotion of technical education. struction

At one of the important meetings of the lead



ing employers of labour in Glasgow, held in the was composed of a very distinguished
Mechanics Institute on the 10th day of De body of men whom they might trust,
cember 1873, for the purpose of establishing a
system of technical intruction, after much dis- and whom the ratepayers trusted, and
cussion, the erection of a wearing school was they would be able to distinguish whe-
the only step in the direction of technical edu- ther or not they ought to come to the
cation which they could then entertain. A assistance of such a school. There were
small committee was thereupon appointed to 50 trades in Glasgow requiring such as.
look out for a site and have snitable premises sistance, and which had no school what-
built and equipped. That was accordingly
done, and the school was opened by Sir James

It would be simply impossible for Bain. Lord Provost of Glasgow, on 3rd Sep- the school board to erect technical schools tember 1877. The site, the building, and all which would cover all these trades in its contents

were at present free from debt or mortgage. The buildings consisted of a lecture

Glasgow, and if they gave the school hall and private room, two sheds, with 16 power

board the power be proposed, it would and 30 hand looms, a steam engine of 14 horse- stimulate many of the trades in that power, besides many other requisites for in- city to sot agoing such schools, in the struction in weaving, and also a dwelling house hope that the school board would take for the instructor. It was supposed that pro- them to a certain extent in their charge bably about 20 pupils would attend the school, but since its opening the average number during and help them. He, therefore, said that eight years had been over 60, while for the last he was doing a good thing for the ratetwo years the number had increased to 72. payers, in the saving of their money, in Manufacturers had borne testimony to the great asking the House to accept this clause. advantages of the practical instruction given at this school by making a certificate of attendance There was not a single industrial town a recommendation for entering their employ- in Scotland which had not eight or 10 ment."

trades that would be benefited by such a This report was most satisfactory as far provision. The same applied in the as it went. It was further shown that country districts. In the agricultural at this school they had given a maximum districts there was power in this Bill to of instruction for a minimum of expendi-enable parishes to combine, and he knew ture, and many of the students had the farmers were very anxious to have distinguished themselves at South Ken- instruction given in technical schools in sington. He dared say the right hon. their districts, and he recognized the serGentleman the Vice President of the vice the present Goverment had rendered Council (Sir William Hart Dyke) had in regard to agriculture, and he thanked seen some of the examples sent up them for having sent a Member of the from the school. He had himself had House of Commons to Scotland to make applications from many parents of young inquiries in the agricultural interest. He men or boys in the manufacturing dis- also thanked the Government for their tricts of Glasgow to endeavour to secure efforts in connection with this Bill, and & reduction or remission of the fees. also wished to express his gratitude to The school had been started in the very the right hon, and learned Lord Advocate centre of the manufacturing district of (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) for the pertiGlasgow – Bridgeton — but, unfortu- nacity with which he had held on to the nately, the managers were unable to Bill. If this clause were accepted, he reduce the fees any further than they believed they would find that the intelliwere at present. He felt confident gent farmers of Scotland would set going that if they could be reduced there schools for the purpose of instruction in were many intelligent, rising youths, agriculture, and would be greatly stimusons of workmen connected with the lated and helped by the support which district, who might become distin- the school boards would be able to give guished manufacturers if they only if the powers he proposed to give them had an opportunity of getting into this were accepted. He, therefore, hoped school. They were unable, however, to the Government would support him in give the necessary help, and what he this endeavour. He knew it would imwished was that the school board should mensely advance the cause of technical have power to remit the fees, and so education in Scotland. The power he enable these youths to receive the neces proposed to give was simply a permissive sary instruction by which means they power, and there could be no risk whatwould be able to develop the skill of ever to the ratepayers. The school these youths. The school board of Glas- boards in Scotland were thoroughly reEBM MOS perfectly able to do that. It presentative of the ratepayers, and they

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