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concessions. He thought that it was an extraordinary part of the Rules of this House that whereas every other Bill could be blocked, a Bill which gave away the money of the people, it may be for generations, could not be blocked. This Bill, he argued, was a good one when it was introduced, but had been spoiled by the Amendments which the Government accepted.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is not entitled to go through the Amendments and discuss them seriatim until they have reached Committee.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL said, the observations ho was about to make were of a general kind. The Amendments altered the character of the Bill entirely.

of past service; (b) and as to the acceptance of employment by officers who receive any part of such sums or have commuted the right to receive the same; and (c) as to the remuneration, whether by way of salary, superannuation allowance, or otherwise, to be received by the said officers for any such employment; and the Treasury may in such rules provide for the enforcement thereof by the forfeiture, suspension, or reduction of any such pay, payment or remuneration as aforesaid or of any commutation money."

Now, it seems to me that that clause distinctly gives great power to the Treasury, and powers which the Treasury ought to have-namely, laying down the terms on which half-pay and retired pay are to be received by officers in the Military and Naval and other Services. In my opinion, rules of the character indicated by the clause as it stands are very much required in the interests of the Public Service. There is no expenditure thrown upon the ratepayers for which the country gets so little return. Indeed, it is a most extraordinary Clause 1 (Grant of gratuity or allow-system, by which young men in the prime ance to injured civil servants) agreed to. Clause 2 (Power to grant retiring allowance to persons removed).

Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee).

Amendment proposed,

In page 2, line 4, at end, add the following: "Provided that the Treasury before making the grant shall consider any representation which the civil servant removed may have submitted to them."—(Mr. Jackson.)

Question, "That the words proposed be there added," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Reckoning of temporary service); Clause 4 (Compassionate gratuity on retirement of person not entitled to superannuation); and Clause 5 (Provision against double pensions) agreed to.

Clause 6 (Regulations as to officers receiving half-pay or retired pay).

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirkcaldy, &c.): I rise for the purpose of expressing my great disappointment and surprise at the proposal which I understand is about to be made to omit this

clause. I had entertained a great hope that the Bill as it stands would have been carried. The clause as it at present stands provides that

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of life are retired on large pensions.
friend of my own, who, although under
I may mention the case of a military
40 years of age, and not having served
for 20 years, has been retired at £400
a-year; and I take it that if this
clause is omitted, such a case as that
cannot be dealt with within the four
corners of the Bill. The question
is not whether it is expedient that
these men should be retired;
what are the terms and conditions on
which they are to be retired, and the
terms ought to be such as to enable the
country to get some benefit from their
future services. I know that this is a
very delicate question, and the officers
who go away with a retired pension do
not like to be placed under conditions
which make it difficult for them to go
where they like and to do what they
like. I can only say that in my
opinion it is most essential that the
Treasury should have power to frame
rules for the regulation of half-pay
and retired pay on retirement.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.): It is quite true, as the hon. Member has said, that, as the clause was originally drawn it might have been read and, in fact, was read by those concerned as giving the Treasury power to frame rules in regard to the receipt of their pay. Now, that was the intention of the Treasury.

It

was

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: Is the clause to stand part of the Bill without amendment?

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I am quite content.

Clause agreed to.

intended that rules should be ascertained, what I did not know before, framed to regulate their employment that there is a precedent for the clause, and the conditions under which they and that it exists in the Superannuation should take service, and an alteration Act of 1879. At the same time, I has been proposed in the wording for still entertain a strong objection to the purpose of giving effect to the the clause. original intention of the Treasury. With regard to the wording of Clause 6, in my humble judgment, it really does not affect the question very much, either one way or the other. What really affects the question is the rules which are to be framed under the clause. The rules have been carefully considered. The hon. Member has had an opportunity of seeing those rules, and I hope there is nothing in them to lead the hon. Member to suppose that we are going to impose on the State an increased burden which is an unreasonable one. The rules have been framed with a view of making a concession to the officers-to enable them and to encourage them to take Colonial employment under the Home Government. With this explanation, I beg to move the omission of the clause, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will not press his opposition.

Amendment proposed, "To leave out the Clause"-(Mr. Jackson.)

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: By the courtesy of the hon. Gentleman I have been allowed to see the rules, and as far as they go I have no complaint to make in regard to them. On the contrary, I think they are very good rules so far. What I do complain of is that they do not go far enough. I think that something of this kind is very much required indeed. I do not think we shall have efficient rules made in regard to the service of retired officers so long as the matter is allowed to remain in the hands of the Military and Naval Departments. It is necessary that some independent Department should step in and frame the rules. Question put and negatived.

Clause 7 (Provision as to lunatics), and Clause 8 (Distribution of money not exceeding one hundred pounds without probate) agreed to.

Clause 9 (Decision of Treasury). MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, S.W.): I have put down a Notice on the Paper to omit the clause; but I do not propose to move it, because I have

Clause 10 (Laying of warrant and minutes before Parliament), Clause 11 (Definitions), and Clause 12 (Short titles) agreed to.

Clause 13 (Repeal).

MR. JACKSON moved to omit certain

words which gave power to make rules under the Bill, fixing the date from which the repeal of the Acts mentioned in the Schedule would operate; the effect of the omission being that the repeal would operate as from the passing of the Bill.

Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 9, to leave out from " "Act," to "without," in line 10, put and agreed to.

Question, "That the words proposed negatived. stand part of the Clause," put and

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

On the Motion of Mr. JACKSON, the following New Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill after Clause 5 :(Regulation as to Officers receiving half-pay or

retired pay, 33 and 34 Vic. c. 96.)

"(1) The Treasury may, within one month after the passing of this Act, frame rules as to the conditions on which any civil employment by this Act, or any employment of profit under of profit under any public department as defined the Government of any British possession, or any employment under the Government of any Foreign State may be accepted or held by any person who is in receipt of or has received any sum granted by Parliament for the pay, halfpay, or retired pay of Officers of Her Majesty's ment for past service in either of such Forces, Naval or Land Forces, or otherwise for payor who has commuted the rights to receive the same, and as to the effect of such acceptance or holding on the same pay or sum, and the Treasury may in such rules provide for the enforcement thereof by the forfeiture, suspension, or reduction of any such pay or sum as aforesaid, or of any commutation money or remuneration for such employment.

"(2.) Such rules shall also provide for the returns to be laid before Parliament of such

officers accepting employment as are affected | has almost become to be considered a by the rules, and shall come into operation at semi-established practice. If the clause the date of the passing of this Act. is to be inserted in the Bill, I would move to insert the word "legal" before the word "rights."

(3.) The rules shall be laid before both

Houses of Parliament forthwith.

"(4.) For the purposes of this section 'British possession means any part of Her Majesty's Dominions out of the United Kingdom, and this section shall apply to Cyprus

as if it were a British possession.'

Mr. JACKSON moved to insert, after Clause 9, the following Clause:

"Nothing in this Act shall be construed so

as in any way to interfere with the rights existing at the passing of this Act of any civil ser

vant then holding office."

New Clause (saving for existing interests,)-(Mr. Jackson,)-brought up, and read a second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: May I point out that this clause is almost identical with one-a very innocent looking clause-which has cost the Indian Government millions of money. The clause I refer to declared that nothing in the Act should be construed so as to interfere with the rights which existed at the time of the passing of the Act. This clause is almost identical, word for word. The effect of the clause was that while many new advantages were given to the officers, the whole organization of the Army was altered, and the officers, claiming the letter of the law, were able to add their old rights to an entirely new state of things, and consequently were able to receive a retiring pay enormously in excess of what was contemplated under either the old or the new law. As a matter of fact, a sort of "sea-lawyer's" construction was put upon the clause. I am not at all sure that the clause the hon. Gentleman is now proposing to insert is not a very dangerous clause, and I wish to know whether the words "rights existing are strictly confined to legal rights? believe that the practice of those who insist on the insertion of a clause of this kind is to insist upon rights which they may have had under the practice of the Office, but which are not strictly legal rights. What I am afraid of is that that practice may be made legal under the Bill, or that under a general clause of this kind civil servants may claim a great deal more than they are entitled to. They have done so already, until it

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SIR JOHN PULESTON (Devon

port): Surely my hon Friend (Sir George Campbell) does not seriously desire to deprive any civil servant of such rights as he had when he took office. The clause, I believe, has been proposed by the Secretary to the to the views of the civil servants, and Treasury as a concession in deference I am sure it cannot be the intention of my hon. Friend to do away with absolute rights which have been existing, and which belong to the civil servants. I hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I think I have no other alternative. I beg to move the insertion of the word "legal' before the word "rights."

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Amendment proposed to the proposed New Clause, to insert the word legal" before the word "rights."— (Sir George Campbell.)

Question proposed, "That the word. 'legal' be there inserted."

MR. JACKSON: I hope that the hon. Member will not press the Amendment. The object of the clause is to secure to existing civil servants the rights which they have acquired. It was never intended by this Bill to injure the existing rights of any individual. I am not able to distinguish very much between a man's rights and his legal rights; but I will say at once, frankly, that the Government accept this addition to the Bill with the distinct object I of securing the existing civil servants the rights which they at present possess. As the Government have accepted the clause in that spirit, I hope the hon. Member will not insist upon his Amendment. He has referred to the case of India; but I may point out that the words inserted in that Act were much wider and covered a great deal more ground than any words it is proposed to insert in this Bill. The words in the India Bill were to the effect that the civil servants were

to be entitled to the like pay, pensions, | said, the object of the clause was to allowances, and privileges, and otherwise enable school boards to assist technical as if they had continued in the service of schools, apart from those they established the Government. The Committee will themselves. In Glasgow there was a therefore see that those words were number of such schools, which it would much more extensive than those which be difficult for the Board to take over, are proposed to be inserted here, and and it would further be difficult for the such a clause, if inserted here, would school boards of Glasgow and other indusvery much extend the intention and trial towns in Scotland to set up schools meaning of the Bill. I hope the hon. giving technical instruction which would Member will not press the Amend- cover all the various trades of these ment. The clause is simply intended towns. What he wished to secure by to carry out an undertaking which this clause was that the school board the Government considered themselves should have power to assist schools which bound to give. had been set agoing by the various trades themselves. This was not a question which should cause any controversy or difficulty. A question had been raised that it might do so, and that it might stimulate the old flame of denominational education. He could not see how such a thing could take place. The object he had in view was not to give instruction of a character which had anything to do with denominationalism or religion in any shape or form. He simply wished to enable the school boards to help those who were trying to help themselves and to better themselves in the world, and to put this country in a position to combat foreign competition by giving the technical education which was absolutely required in order to keep our position among the nations of the world. He had observed 25 years ago we were falling very much behind in the race in connection with technical instruction as compared with the Continental nations. He took no credit to

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I do not see why the Government should oppose the Amendment. There can be no difference between "rights" and "legal rights," unless it is intended to give to the civil servants something beyond their legal rights. I must say that the words of the clause, so far as they go, are just as wide as those of the Indian Act. In that case the civil servants not only get their existing rights, but all other rights-new rights and new privileges far beyond their old rights.

Question put, and negatived.
Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.

Schedule.

On the Motion of Mr. JACKSON, the following Amendment made:-In page 6, line 33, to leave out "the whole Act so far as unrepealed," and to insert "Sub-sections four, five, and six of Section six."

Bill reported; as amended, to be con- himself for having called attention to the sidered To-morrow.

TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND)

BILL.-[BILL 358.]

matter. That credit was mainly due to a very intelligent and enterprizing citizen of Glasgow-Mr. David Sandiman-who started a technical school in

(The Lord Advocate, Mr. Solicitor General for 1871, which had done a great deal of

Scotland, Sir Herbert Maxwell.)

CONSIDERATION.

Bill, as amended, considered.

MR. MASON (Lanark, Mid), in moving the following New Clause:

good to the City of Glasgow, but which was now very much pressed for funds, depending upon the generosity of merchants in Glasgow and elsewhere. He would call hon. Members' attention to

a

paragraph which had appeared in the Glasgow newspapers on Thursday, and which contained an extract from the annnal report of the Glasgow Weaving School. It was stated that

"Subject to the conditions under which a school board may provide and maintain a technical school (so far as such conditions are applicable), a school board may (with the consent of the Scotch Education Department, and on "The school was the outcome of a meeting such terms and conditions as that Department held under the presidency of Mr. William Rae may prescribe) provide technical instruction by Arthur, Lord Provost of the City of Glasgow in assisting from the school fund in the mainten- 1871, when the first movement was made toance of any school giving inclusively such in-wards the promotion of technical education. struction

At one of the important meetings of the lead

ing employers of labour in Glasgow, held in the Mechanics' Institute on the 10th day of December 1873, for the purpose of establishing a system of technical intruction, after much discussion, the erection of a weaving school was the only step in the direction of technical education which they could then entertain. A small committee was thereupon appointed to look out for a site and have suitable premises built and equipped. That was accordingly done, and the school was opened by Sir James Bain. Lord Provost of Glasgow, on 3rd September 1877. The site, the building, and all its contents were at present free from debt or mortgage. The buildings consisted of a lecture hall and private room, two sheds, with 16 power wer and 30 hand looms, a steam engine of 14 horsepower, besides many other requisites for instruction in weaving, and also a dwelling house for the instructor. It was supposed that probably about 20 pupils would attend the school, but since its opening the average number during eight years had been over 60, while for the last two years the number had increased to 72. Manufacturers had borne testimony to the great advantages of the practical instruction given at this school by making a certificate of attendance a recommendation for entering their employ

ment."

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This report was most satisfactory as far as it went. It was further shown that at this school they had given a maximum of instruction for a minimum of expenditure, and many of the students had distinguished themselves at South Kensington. He dared say the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Sir William Hart Dyke) had seen some of the examples sent up from the school. He had himself had applications from many parents of young men or boys in the manufacturing districts of Glasgow to endeavour to secure a reduction or remission of the fees. The school had been started in the very centre of the manufacturing district of Glasgow Bridgeton but, unfortunately, the managers were unable to reduce the fees any further than they were at present. He felt confident that if they could be reduced there were many intelligent, rising youths, sons of workmen connected with the district, who might become distinguished manufacturers if they only had an opportunity of getting into this school. They were unable, however, to give the necessary help, and what he wished was that the school board should have power to remit the fees, and so enable these youths to receive the necessary instruction by which means they would be able to develop the skill of these youths. The school board of GlasSBA MOS perfectly able to do that. It

was composed of a very distinguished body of men whom they might trust, and whom the ratepayers trusted, and they would be able to distinguish whether or not they ought to come to the assistance of such a school. There were 50 trades in Glasgow requiring such assistance, and which had no school whatever. It would be simply impossible for the school board to erect technical schools which would cover all these trades in Glasgow, and if they gave the school board the power he proposed, it would stimulate many of the trades in that city to set agoing such schools, in the hope that the school board would take them to a certain extent in their charge and help them. He, therefore, said that he was doing a good thing for the ratepayers, in the saving of their money, in asking the House to accept this clause. There was not a single industrial town in Scotland which had not eight or 10 trades that would be benefited by such a provision. The same applied in the country districts. In the agricultural districts there was power in this Bill to enable parishes to combine, and he knew the farmers were very anxious to have instruction given in technical schools in their districts, and he recognized the service the present Goverment had rendered in regard to agriculture, and he thanked them for having sent a Member of the House of Commons to Scotland to make inquiries in the agricultural interest. He also thanked the Government for their efforts in connection with this Bill, and also wished to express his gratitude to the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) for the pertinacity with which he had held on to the Bill. If this clause were accepted, he believed they would find that the intelligent farmers of Scotland would set going schools for the purpose of instruction in agriculture, and would be greatly stimulated and helped by the support which the school boards would be able to give if the powers he proposed to give them were accepted. He, therefore, hoped the Government would support him in this endeavour. He knew it would immensely advance the cause of technical education in Scotland. The power he proposed to give was simply a permissive power, and there could be no risk whatever to the ratepayers. The school boards in Scotland were thoroughly representative of the ratepayers, and they

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