they will, by their hearty and unmitigated condemnation, express their lothing and detestation of the House of Lords and their action. MR. W. ABRAHAM (Glamorgan, Rhondda): I do not disagree with those who appreciate the efforts made by the hon. Member for Northampton in endeavouring to pass this Bill. I agree that the Bill, as it left this House, was not entirely the best; but as it stands, with the omission of this clause affecting the payment of wages, it loses its utility, as far as the working classes are concerned. If we desire to add to the difficult position of working men, nothing we can do would be more effectual than giving them their wages in short advances. MR. BRADLAUGH: Allow me to explain that Clause 3 assures that the workmen shall receive the advance as a right, and makes it an offence to the employer to withhold it. the very same Session, they have, at my instance, passed in the Stannaries Act a clause for wages to be paid within 14 days, which is precisely the demand, not by the Belfast men, but of the Scottish quarrymen, and the quarrymen of Cumberland and the North, I therefore want to know what induced these Gentlemen to agree with the clause I fought for, which was practically my clause in my Miners Wages Bill; why have they passed that which is one of the most drastic measures ever presented to Parliament ? If the Lords must disagree with us it is not too much for us to ask they should give a sensible reason for disagreement, that we should be treated as sensible men, and not as children, not understanding what we are about. I do not attach too much importance to this measure. I am aware there are valuable provisions in it, and I do not dispute what the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) has said of it; but I should regret its loss on his account much more than on account of the workmen of this country; because I believe the grievance has been going on so long that it will not matter if it goes on a few months longer, provided we can get a substantial and good Bill for the workmen at the end of it. Therefore, I say, let us, if we cannot prevail on the Government to stand to their guns, let us throw on the House of Lords the odium of having stood in the way of one more piece of useful legislation demanded by the people of this country. It is not at all surprising to hear that "another place" is true to their traditions. I have, as I have said before in this House, never known a useful legislative reform passed by this House which has not been marred and mutilated in "another place." It is not merely this Bill; but there is the Mines Bill, the Land Bill, and, in fact, every Bill except the Coercion Bill, which alone finds favour in "another place." Having regard to your ruling, Sir, on former occasions, and at an earlier period of this evening, I have no wish to express my opinion about the conduct of Gentlemen in "another place." I think it is far better to appeal to my fellow-clause was lost, the kernel of the Bill countrymen outside; but I have no hesitation in saying that when I appeal to my constituents to express their approbation of the Trades Union Congress resolution which I quoted just now, MR. W. ABRAHAM: By keeping from the working men their full wages, they are worse treated than any other class of people in this country. If any one goes to a banker to borrow money, he must ask for his consent; but the employers of labour in this country keep the wages from their workmen for three or four weeks, and do not give any account of what they have really earned for 12 or 13 weeks. Therefore, when my hon. Friend proposes to leave out the clause relating to the payment of weekly wages, he is taking out the kernel of the Bill. MR. BRADLAUGH: I must be allowed to explain that there never was such a clause as the weekly wages clause in my Bill. MR. W. ABRAHAM: There was a clause for the payment of wages. MR. BRADLAUGH: Never; in my Bill. MR. W. ABRAHAM: It was proposed by the Under Secretary for the Home Department, accepted by the Representatives of the working men, and accepted by the working men as a solution of the question. ["No, no!"] I beg to say yes; and when this wise was lost also, and the Bill, without it, will not meet the case, or give a fair solution of the question. The Government will find this question will be agitated the first chance that can be got, and the agitation will be continued until something has been done to secure for the working men a weekly payment of wages. MR. BRADLAUGH: There never was such a clause in my Bill; there were several Amendments proposed and accepted, and, amongst others, one from the Government Benches; but it never formed part of the Bill, and never came under discussion in the House. MR. W. ABRAHAM: If I am not greatly mistaken, this is the clause that the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton) moves to have restored-namely, the clause for the weekly payment of wages in Ireland. This is the thin end of the wedge-if weekly payment of wages in Ireland can be secured, it is the thin end of the wedge for the weekly payment of wages in England being secured as well, and it deserves the support of every Representative of labour in this House. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will consider this point, if they are desirous to aid the working men to kill truck, to kill credit, and to have the full value of their wages earned. They can do so by securing this principle, by aiding the hon. Member for Belfast in carrying this Amendment. Instead of that we have to-day not only to allow the wages to remain in the hands of the employers, but we have to go cap in hand to ask for enough to buy food, our money being kept in their hands for the want of such a clause as this. I therefore hope the hon. Members will divide upon it. MR. EDWARD HARRINGTON (Kerry, W.): I have not troubled the House yet on the Appropriation Bill, though I have a lot to say upon it, but I desire to refer to the subject that is immediately before the Chair now, and I think that what has been brought forward might claim something more of an answer than the mere interpolated platitudes which the First Lord of the Treasury threw into the debate. He may be right, or he may be wrong, in the statement he made; but, in my opinion, the presumption would be strongly in favour of his being wrong, as I have invariably found that to be the case. As I see the hon. and learned Gentlemen the Solicitor General for England (Sir Edward Clarke) has a large green book beside him, dealing with this matter, I think, even at this hour of the morning, it should be clearly stated whether our position is such that we must take all the Lords present, that we must swallow it as we have no other option, or if we do not admit their Amendments, we must throw out the Bill. I think the hon. Member for Northampton was a little severe on us. His theory was this-He backs us up in our demand for Home Government in Ireland, and our desire to see an improvement of the laws, but if an English Member brings in a Bill, and an Irish Member seeks to engraft upon that something which would do us some good, he is not to be responsible for it; he may agree with the principle, but he will not spite the Lords, as he is too much of a Radical. I am sorry that so sound a Radical should hold those views. I heard the name of the noble Lord who is responsible for this Amendment. I am sorry that the cobwebs of Privilege surround that name, or I should enlighten the hon. Member about him. I happen to have been born on the property of this noble Lord, and I know who he is. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is speaking irrelevantly to the subject before the House. MR. EDWARD HARRINGTON: I have no ambition at this hour of the Session, neither is it my desire to transgress your ruling, or give myself any invidious distinction. I was not seeking to MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member will resume his seat as he is not speaking to the Question. MR. EDWARD HARRINGTON: I will not resume my seat. You have been on the pounce watching me. I claim my right to speak on this question that affects the people. You have been on the pounce watching me since I stood up. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Edward Harrington, I name you to the House for disregarding the authority of the Chair. "That Mr. Edward Harrington be susMotion made, and Question put, pended from the Service of the House." (Mr. W. H. Smith.) The House divided :--Ayes 135; Noes 34: Majority 101.-(Div. List, No. 483.) The following is the Entry in the Votes: : Mr. SPEAKER, having called the attention of the House to the continued irrelevance on the part of Mr. Edward Harrington, Member for the Western Division of County of Kerry, directed him to discontinue his Speech, but the honour. able Member persisted in continuing his Ad dress; Whereupon he was named by Mr. Speaker, for disregarding the authority of the Chair. Motion made, and Question put, "That Mr. Edward Harrington be suspended from the Service of the House: "-The House divided ; Ayes 135; Noes 34. MR. SEXTON: May I ask you, Sir, as a matter of Order, to put the Amendment as against Clause 4. MR. SPEAKER: The Question I put was, "That this House doth not insist on its disagreement with the Lords in the said Amendments, on which the Lords do insist." MR. SEXTON: Is that to Clause 4? MR. SPEAKER: They stand together, Clause 4 and Clause 5. MR. SEXTON: I wish to separate them, as hon. Members do not seem to disagree with the Amendments to the other clause, Clause 5. Motion by leave withdrawn. Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth not insist on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendment to leave out Clause 4, on which the Lords do insist."-(Mr. Bradlaugh.) The House divided:-Ayes 129; Noes 47: Majority 82.-(Div List, No. 484.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth not insist on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendment to leave out Clause 5, on which the Lords do insist."-(Mr. Bradlaugh.) MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): I am not in favour of 5 o'clock in the morning speeches, and therefore I shall not trouble the House with a speech; but as it is of importance that people in Scotland should know who the Members are who refuse to them so reasonable a concession as the fortnightly payment of wages, I therefore shall be obliged to take a Division on this Amendment. Question put, The House divided:-Ayes 133; Noes 42 Majority 91.-(Div. List, No. 485.) Consequential Amendments agreed to. MOTION. —0— ADJOURNMENT. THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA SURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.): I beg to move "That this House do now venience of Members to mention that adjourn," " and it may be for the conthe House will meet this day at 3 o'clock. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."(Mr. Jackson.) MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.): May I be allowed to ask what is to be the course of Business. Supposing the third stage to-morrow evening, what do Appropriation Bill gets through the the Government intend to do with the remainder of the Paper-will any pri vate Members' Bills be taken after the Government Business is disposed of? MR. JACKSON: It is not intended to take any private Members' Business. MR. BIGGAR: What will be done on Wednesday and Thursday? MR. JACKSON: The House will adjourn until Friday, unless there is Business which we do not know of that may come from the House of Lords. MR. SEXTON: Is it competent for the Government, without Notice, to move that the House shall meet to-day except at the ordinary time? MR. SPEAKER: Yes; that is frequently done. I mentioned the hour, and it was not challenged. Question put, and agreed to. House adjourned at a quarter after * tinuance (263); Local Government (Boun- the matter of the election of school daries) (259); Prisons (Officers' Super- boards. In Scotland the election of annuation) (Scotland) (264); Superannua- school boards was triennial, and one of tion Acts Amendment (262); Technical Schools) (Scotland) * (260), and passed. these triennial elections took place next Third Reading-Merchant Shipping (Miscel- spring between March and June. One laneous)* (257), and passed. of the provisions in this Bill was, that any resolution for the establishment of a technical school must take place before the election of a school board; therefore, if the Bill had been postponed till next Session, it would practically prevent the Bill coming into TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) (The Marquess of Lothian.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Read- operation for three years, while, under ing, read. the system in England, the English Bill might be in operation before the THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND close of next year. Such a postpone(The Marquess of LOTHIAN), in moving ment in the case of Scotland, he would that the Bill be now read a second time, very much have deprecated, because it said, that he felt some explanation was would have been the postponement of a due to their Lordships for bringing on a measure which, he believed, would be measure of this importance so late in the of great advantage to that country, and, Session. At an earlier date, the Govern- under these circumstances, he had no ment intended to proceed with a Bill of alternative but to ask their Lordships to a similar nature for England, and when give the Bill a second reading now. The mention was made of it, as their Lord- object of the Bill was to facilitate the ships were aware, a general desire was establishment and maintenance of techexpressed that there should be a Bill nical schools in Scotland by giving addifor Scotland, with the result that at his tional facilities to school boards to pro(the Marquess of Lothian's) request, vide technical education to those atthis Bill had been introduced into the tending board schools. The object of House of Commons by the Lord Advo- technical education, or, as he preferred cate. The English Bill had been with- to call it, handiwork education, was to drawn; but that for Scotland met with educate together the mental and the physisuch general acceptance that it was cal powers of the young. He liked the hoped it might be possible to carry it term "handiwork" education, because through this Session. And there was a "technical" education had come to mean, strong reason why it should be carried in the minds of most people, some special this Session. It had, of course, passed education not in the regular standards the House of Commons; but though of the school work curriculum; while every endeavour had been made to push handiwork education pointed to this, it forward with the least possible delay, that those for whom the school boards the Bill had not passed the third read- were in existence should, while getting ing in that House until Friday last, and their mental education, learn also how consequently could not come before their to make use of their hands in such a Lordships at a Sitting earlier than the way as should be useful to them in after present. He regretted that all the more life. The Bill had undergone considerbecause he thought the Bill was pre-able modifications since its introduction; eminently one of those measures that was sure to meet with that discussion and criticism which their Lordships' House was so fitted to give, and which might lead to such amendment as would give it increased efficacy and value. Their Lordships might ask why they had pressed on with the Scottish Bill under these circumstances, when they had postponed the English Bill? Well, in answer to such a question, he could only say that the position of Scotland was distinct, and it differed from England in but he did not intend to ask their Lordships to make alterations in Committee upon it, as most of the Amendments accepted by the Government had been submitted to him, and had met with his approval. LORD LINGEN asked, whether a school board was limited under Clause 3 to instituting only one technical school in its district? THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN, in reply, said, that that clause provided for only one. It was impossible, he might say, in conclusion, to forecast the advantages which a Bill of this kind might produce. It would probably put a final stop to the old apprenticeship system; but that system was already dying out, and it was possibly in consequence of that fact that this Bill had been found necessary, in order to supply the thorough training which the apprenticeship system was calculated to impart. He felt certain that the Bill would receive the general acceptance of the people of Scotland, and even as it stood, and even if it did not become necessary to add to it hereafter, it was a measure which he was convinced would do a great deal of good. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." -(The Marquess of Lothian.) LORD LINGEN said, he did not rise to oppose the Bill, with the object of which he entirely sympathized. It was a measure of the greatest importance, as being the first of its kind in the United Kingdom; and he could not but regret that Her Majesty's Government had not postponed it, as they might have done, together with the English one, without serious delay, inasmuch as he believed the election of the new school boards in Scotland would not take effect before April next. They would thus have had the remainder of the Recess to consider the principles of the Bill, and the Bill might have been pushed through as quickly as possible after Parliament re-assembled, if necessary. He thought the Bill involved considerations and principles of great difficulty, which might hereafter cause considerable embarrassment. For instance, the working of it would practically be in the hands of the Science and Art Department at Kensington, and the relations of that body to the Scottish Education Department appeared to him to be left in a very indeterminate form in the Bill. He found that the Scottish Education Department was confined to the regulation of the procedure of the school boards, and the regulation of those subjects of instruction which could not be subjects of grants. Now, he need not say that those were exactly the subjects which would have nothing to do with technical schools qua technical schools. It came, therefore, to this, that these schools were so largely entrusted to the Department at South Kensington as to be practically taken away from the Scottish Education Department. That appeared to him to be the effect of the Bill, so far as he had been able to study it; and he thought it was one of those measures which it was peculiarly unfortunate should be included in the "rush" which was usual at the end of a Session. There were other considerations, such as the question of the maintenance of those schools, which made it very desirable that such a Bill should be thoroughly discussed; and though he was aware that his remarks would lead to no practical conclusion, yet he had thought it desirable to place these considerations before their Lordships. that if he had thought it was possible, THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN said, without disadvantage, to postpone the Bill till another Session, he would have done so; but, as he had already pointed out, to have done so would have been practically to postpone the Bill for three years. It would have been impossible to pass the Bill through all its stages in both Houses in time for April elections next year. As to the remark made by the noble Lord (Lord Lingen) that the control would rest with the Science and Art Department, he thought the noble Lord would see that the ultimate decision practically rested with the Scotch Education Department; and, indeed, the whole object of the Bill was as far as possible to throw the responsibility upon the Scotch Education Department. They would find that in one clause of the Bill it was provided that the subjects to be taught in these schools were to be such as were approved by the Scotch Education Department, and in Clause 6 it was provided that the schools must be conducted in accordance with the conditions made by the Scotch Education Department and set forth in the Scotch Education Code. He could assure their Lordships that the great desire was that the Scotch Education Department should have the control of the whole educational system of Scotland, except the Universities, and should themselves be responsible for that education. He would like to correct the answer he formerly gave as to school boards having the power to institute only one school; because he found that the school board should fix the fees at each technical school under the management of the Board, which showed that there might be more than one such school under one Board. |