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the very same Session, they have, at my they will, by their hearty and unmitiinstance, passed in the Stannaries Act a gated condemnation, express their lothclause for wages to be paid within 14 ing and detestation of the House of days, which is precisely the demand, Lords and their action. not by the Belfast men, but of the Scot- MR. W. ABRAHAM (Glamorgan, tish quarrymen, and the quarrymen of Rhondda): I do not disagree with those Cumberland and the North, I therefore who appreciate the efforts made by the want to know what induced these Gen- hon. Member for Northampton in entlemen to agree with the clause I fought deavouring to pass this Bill. I agree for, which was practically my clause in that the Bill, as it left this House, was my Miners Wages Bill; why have they not entirely the best; but as it stands, passed that which is one of the most with the omission of this clause affectdrastic measures ever presented to Par- ing the payment of wages, it loses its liament? If the Lords must disagree utility, as far as the working classes with us it is not too much for us to ask are concerned. If we desire to add to they should give a sensible reason for the difficult position of working men, disagreement, that we should be treated nothing we can do would be more as sensible men, and not as children, effectual than giving them their wages not understanding what we are about. I in short advances. do not attach too much importance to this

MR. BRADLAUGH : Allow me to measure. I am aware there are valuable explain that Clause 3 assures that the provisions in it, and I do not dispute workmen shall receive the advance as a what the hon. Member for Northampton right, and makes it an offence to the (Mr. Bradlaugh) has said of it; but I employer to withhold it. should regret its loss on his account ÑR. W. ABRAHAM : By keeping much more than on account of the work- from the working men their full wages, men of this country; because I believe they are worse treated than any other the grievance has been going on so long class of people in this country. If any. that it will not matter if it goes on a one goes to a bankor to borrow money, few months longer, provided we can get he must ask for his consent; but the a substantial and good Bill for the employers of labour in this country workmen at the end of it. Therefore, keep the wages from their workmen for I say, let us, if we cannot prevail on three or four weeks, and do not give the Government to stand to their guns, any account of what they have really let us throw on the House of Lords the earned for 12 or 13 weeks. Therefore, odium of having stood in the way of one when my hon. Friend proposes

to leare more piece of useful legislation de- out the clause relating to the payment manded by the people of this country. of weekly wages, he is taking out the It is not at all surprising to hear that kernel of the Bill. "another place” is true to their tradi- MR. BRADLAUGI : I must be tions. I have, as I have said before in allowed to explain that there never was this House, never known a useful legis- such a clause as the weekly wages lative reform passed by this House clause in my Bill. which has not been marred and muti- MR. W. ABRAHAM: There was a lated in “another place.” It is not clause for the payment of wages. merely this Bill ; but there is the Mines MR. BRADLAUGH: Never; in my Bill, the Land Bill, and, in fact, every Bill | Bill. except the Coercion Bill, which alone MR. W. ABRAHAM : It was profinds favour in "another place." Having posed by the Under Secretary for the regard to your ruling, Sir, on former Home Department, accepted by the ocoasions, and at an earlier period of Representatives of the working men, this evening, I have no wish to express and accepted by the working men as a my opinion about the conduct of Gen- solution of the question. ["No, no!") tlemen in “another place." I think it I beg to say yes; and when this vise is far better to appeal to my fellow- clause was lost, the kernel of the Bill countrymen outside ; but I have no was lost also, and the Bill, without it

, hesitation in saying that when I appeal will not meet the case, or give a fair to my constituents to express their ap- solution of the stion. The Governprobation of the Trades Union Congress ment will find this question will be resolution which I quoted just now, I agitated the first chance that can be

of wages.

got, and the agitation will be continued hour of the morning, it should be clearly until something has been done to secure stated whether our position is such that for the working men a weekly payment we must take all the Lords present,

that we must swallow it as we have no MR. BRADLAUGH: There never other option, or if we do not admit their was such a clause in my Bill ; there were Amendments, we must throw out the several Amendments proposed and ac- Bill. I think the hon. Member for cepted, and, amongst others, one from Northampton was a little severe on us. the Government Benches; but it never His theory was this—He backs us up formed part of the Bill, and never came in our demand for Home Government under discussion in the House.

in Ireland, and our desire to see an imMR. W. ABRAHAM: If I am not provement of the laws, but if an English greatly mistaken, this is the clause that Member brings in a Bill, and an Irish the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Memberserks to engraft upon that someSexton) moves to have restored-namely, thing which would do us some good, he the clause for the weekly payment of is not to be responsible for it; he may wages in Ireland. This is the thin end agree with the principle, but he will of the wedge-if weekly payment of not spite the Lords, as he is too much wages in Ireland can be secured, it is of a Radical. I am sorry that so sound the thin end of the wedge for the weekly a Radical should hold those views. I payment of wayes in England being heard the rame of the noble Lord who secured as well, and it deserves the sup- is responsible for this Amendment. I port of every Representative of labour am sorry that the cobwebs of Privilege in this House. I hope that hon. Gentle- surround that name, or I should enmen will consider this point, if they are lighten the hon. Member about him. I desirous to aid the working men to kill happen to have been born on the protruck, to kill credit, and to have the full perty of this noble Lord, and I know value of their wages earned. They can who he is. do so by securing this principle, by aid- MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleing the hon. Member for Belfast in man is speaking irrelevantly to the carrying this Amendment. Instead of subject before the House. that we have to-day not only to allow MR. EDWARD HARRINGTON: I the wages to remain in the hands of the have no ambition at this hour of the employers, but we have to go cap in Session, neither is it my desire to transhand to ask for enough to buy food, gress your ruling, or give myself any our money being kept in their hands invidious distinction. I was not seekfor the want of such a clause as this. I ing to therefore hope the hon. Members will MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member divide upon it.

will resume his seat as he is not speakMR. EDWARD HARRINGTON ing to the Question. (Kerry, W.): I have not troubled the MR. EDWARD HARRINGTON: I House yet on the Appropriation Bill, will not resume my seat. You have though I have a lot to say upon it, but been on the pounce watching me. I I desire to refer to the subject that is claim my right to speak on this quesimmediately before the Chair now, and tion that affects the people. You have I think that what has been brought been on the pounce watching me since forward might claim something more of I stood up. an answer than the mere interpolated MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Edward Harplatitudes which the First Lord of the rington, I name you to the House for Treasury threw into the debate. He disregarding the authority of the Chair. may be right, or he may be wrong, in the statement he made ; but, in, my That Mr. Edward Harrington be sus.

Motion made, and Question put, opinion, the presumption would be strongly in favour of his being wrong, pended from the Service of the House." as I have invariably found that to be the -(Afr. W. H. Smith.) case. As I see the hon. and learned

The House divided :---Ayes 135; Noes Gentlemen the Solicitor General for 34 : Majority 101.--(Div. List, No. 483.) England (Sir Edward Clarke) has a large green book beside him, dealing The following is the Entry in the with this matter, I think, even at this Votes:


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Mr. SPEAKER, having called the attention of the House to the continued irrelevance on the


. part of lír. Edward Harrington, Member for the Western Division of County of Kerry, directed

ADJOURNMENT. him to discontinue his Speech, but the honour.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREAable Member persisted in continuing his Ad- SURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.): I dress;

beg to move “That this House do now Whereupon he was named by Mr. Speaker, adjourn,” and it may be for the con

venience of Members to mention that for disregarding the authority of the Chair.

the IIouse will meet this day at 3 o'clock. Motion made, and Question put, " That Mr. Edward Harrington be suspended from the

Motion made, and Question proposed, Service of the House : ”—The House divided ;

“That this House do now adjourn."Ayes 135; Noes 34.

(Mr. Jackson.) MR. SEXTON : May I ask you, Sir,

MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.): May I as a matter of Order, to put the Amend- be allowed to ask what is to be the ment as against Clause 4.

course of Business. Supposing the Mr. SPEAKER: The Question I put Appropriation Bill gets through was, “ That this House doth not insist

third stage to-morrow evening, what do on its disagreement with the Lords in the Government intend to do with the the said Amendments, on which the remainder of the Paper-will any priLords do insist."

vate Members' Bills be taken after the MR. SEXTON: Is that to Clause 4 ?

Government Business is disposed of? MR. SPEAKER: They stand to

MR. JACKSON: It is not intended gother, Clause 4 and Clause 5.

to take any private Members' Business. MR. SEXTON: I wish to separate on Wednesday and Thursday ?

MR. BIGGAR: What will be done them, as hon. Members do not seem to on Wednesday and Thursday ? disagree with the Amendments to the

MR, JACKSON: The House will adother clause, Clause 5.

journ until Friday, unless there is Busi

ness which we do not know of that may Motion by leave withdrawn.

come from the House of Lords. Motion made, and Question put,

MR. SEXTON : Is it competent for " That this House doth not insist on its dis

the Government, without Notice, to agreement with the Lords in their Amendment move that the House shall meet to-day to leave out Clause 4, on which the Lords do except at the ordinary time? insist."-(Mr. Bradlaugh.)

Mr. SPEAKER: Yes; that is freThe House divided :-Ayes 129; Noes quently done. I mentioned the hour, 47: Majority 82.-(Div List, No. 484.) and it was not challenged, Motion made, and Question proposed,

Question put, and agreed to. " That this House doth not insist on its dis

House adjourned at a quarter after agreement with the Lords in their Amendment

Five o'clock in the morning. to leave out Clause 5, on which the Lords do insist.”—(Mr. Bradlaugh.)

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): I am not in favour of 5 o'clock in the

HOUSE OF LORDS, morning speeches, and therefore I shall not trouble the House with a speech; but as it is of importance that people

Tuesday, 13th September, 1887. in Scotland should know who the Members are who refuse to them so reasonable a concession as the fortnightly


Lord Chaworth (Earl of Meath), after the payment of wages, I therefore shall be death of his father. obliged to take a Division on this Public Bills - First Reading

Consolidated Amendment.

Fund (Appropriation)*; Local Authorities Question put,

(Expenses) * (270). Second Reading

Women's Suffrage (No. 2) The House divided :-Ayes 133; Noes (236), negatived. 42: Majority 91.-(Div. List, No. 485.)

Second Reading - Committee negatived Third

Reading Bankruptcy (Discharge and Consequential Amendments agreed to. Closure) * (261); Expiring Laws Continuance* (263); Local Government (Boun- , the matter of the election of school daries) * (259); Prisons (Officers' Super- boards. In Scotland the election of annuation) (Scotland). (264); Superannua, school boards was triennial, and one of tion Acts Amendment (262); Technical Schools) (Scotland) * (260), and passed.

these triennial elections took place next Third Reading – Merchant Shipping (Miscel. spring between March and June. One laneous) * (257), and passed.

of the provisions in this Bill was, that

any resolution for the establishment of TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) a technical school must take place beBILL.- (No. 260.)

fore the election of a school board ;

therefore, if the Bill had been post(The Marquess of Lothian.)

poned till next Session, it would pracSECOND READING,

tically prevent the Bill coming into Order of the Day for the Second Read-operation for three years, while, under ing, read.

the system in England, the English

Bill might be in operation before the THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND close of next year. Such a postpone(The Marquess of Lothian), in moving ment in the case of Scotland, he would that the Bill be now read a second time, very much have deprecated, because it said, that he felt some explanation was would have been the postponement of a due to their Lordships for bringing on a measure which, he believed, would be measure of this importance so late in the of great advantage to that country, and, Session. At an earlier date, the Govern- under these circumstances, he had no ment intended to proceed with a Bill of alternative but to ask their Lordships to a similar nature for England, and when give the Bill a second reading now. The mention was made of it, as their Lord- object of the Bill was to facilitate the ships were aware, a general desire was establishment and maintenance of techexpressed that there should be a Bill nical schools in Scotland by giving addifor Scotland, with the result that at his tional facilities to school boards to pro(the Marquess of Lothian's) request, vide technical education to those atthis Bill had been introduced into the tending board schools. The object of House of Commons by the Lord Advo- technical education, or, as he preferred cate. The English Bill had been with to call it, handiwork education, was to drawn ; but that for Scotland met with educate together the mentaland the physisuch general acceptance that it was cal powers of the young. He liked the hoped it might be possible to carry it term “handiwork”” education, because through this Session. And there was a "technical" education bad come to mean, strong reason why it should be carried in the minds of most people, some special this Session. It had, of course, passed education not in the regular standards the House of Commons; but though of the school work curriculum; while every endeavour had been made to push handiwork education pointed to this, it forward with the least possible delay, that those for whom the school boards the Bill had not passed the third read- were in existence should, while getting ing in that House until Friday last, and their mental education, learn also how consequently could not come before their to make use of their hands in such a Lordships at a Sitting earlier than the way as should be useful to them in after present. He regretted that all the more life. The Bill had undergone considerbecause he thought the Bill was pre- able modifications sincə its introduction; eminently one of those measures that but he did not intend to ask their Lord. was sure to meet with that discussion ships to make alterations in Committee and criticism which their Lordships' upon it, as most of the Amendments House was so fitted to give, and which accepted by the Government had been might lead to such amendment as would submitted to him, and had met with his give it increased efficacy and value. approval. Their Lordships might ask why they had LORD LINGEN asked, whether a pressed on with the Scottish Bill under school board was limited under Clause these circumstances, when they had 3 to instituting only one technical school postponed the English Bill? Well, in in its district ? answer to such a question, he could only THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN, in reply, say that the position of Scotland was said, that that clause provided for only distinct, and it differed from England in one. It was impossible, he might say, in conclusion, to forecast the advantages Department. That appeared to him to which a Bill of this kind might produce. be the effect of the Bill, so far as he had It would probably put a final stop to the been able to study it; and he thought it old apprenticeship system; but that was one of those measures which it was system was already dying out, and it peculiarly unfortunate should be inwas possibly in consequence of that factcluded in the "rush ” which was usual that this Bill had been found necessary, at the end of a Session.

There were in order to supply the thorough training other considerations, such as the queswhich the apprenticeship system was tion of the maintenance of those schools, calculated to impart. He felt certain which made it very desirable that such that the Bill would receive the general a Bill should be thoroughly discussed; acceptance of the people of Scotland, and though he was aware that his reand even as it stood, and even if it did marks would lead to no practical con. not become necessary to add to it here- clusion, yet he had thought it desirable after, it was a measure which he was to place these considerations before their convinced would do a great deal of good. Lordships. Moved, " That the Bill be now read 22." that if he had thought it was possible


THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN said, -(The Marquess of Lothian.)

without disadvantage, to postpone the LORD LINGEN said, he did not rise Bill till another Session, he would have to oppose the Bill, with the object of done so; but, as he had already pointed which he entirely sympathized. It was out, to have done so would have been a measure of the greatest importance, practically to postpone the Bill for three as being the first of its kind in the years. It would have been impossible United Kingdom; and he could not but to pass the Bill through all its stages in regret that Her Majesty's Government boch Houses in time for April elections had not postponed it, as they might have next year. As to the remark made by done, together with the English one, the noble Lord (Lord Lingen) that the without serious delay, inasmuch as he control would rest with the Science and believed the election of the new school Art Department, he thought the noble boards in Scotland would not take effect Lord would see that the ultimate decibefore April next. They would thus sion practically rested with the Scotch have had the remainder of the Recess Education Department; and, indeed, to consider the principles of the Bill, the whole object of the Bill was as far and the Bill might have been pushed as possible to throw the responsibility through as quickly as possible after Par- upon the Scotch Education Department. liament re-assembled, if necessary. He They would find that in one clause of thought the Bill involved considerations the Bill it was provided that the suband principles of great difficulty, which jects to be taught in these schools were to might hereafter cause considerable em- be such as were approved by the Scotch barrassment. For instance, the working Education Department, and in Clause 6 of it would practically be in the hands it was provided that the schools must be of the Science and Art Department at conducted in accordance with the conKensington, and the relations of that ditions made by the Scotch Education body to the Scottish Education Depart. Department and set forth in the Scotch ment appeared to him to be left in a Education Code. He could assure their very indeterminate form in the Bill. He Lordships that the great desire was that found that Scottish E ation th otch Education Department should partment was confined to the regulation have the control of the whole educational of the procedure of the school boards, system of Scotland, except the Univer: and the regulation of those subjects of sities, and should themselves be responinstruction which could not be subjects sible for that education. He would like of grants. Now, he need not say that to correct the answer he formerly gave those were exactly the subjects which as to school boards having the power to would have nothing to do with technical institute only one school ; because he schools

qua technical schools. It came, found that the school board should fix therefore, to this, that these schools were the fees at each technical school under 80 largely entrusted to the Department the management of the Board, which at South Kensington as to be practically showed that there might be more than takou

away from the Scottish Education one such school under one Board.

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