this country will never get justicethat coal miners and every other class of men will never get justice until they make not only this Assembly, but every assembly respect their wishes. I believe also that before the working men of this country get justice the House of Lords will have to be bridled.

MR. FENWICK: This is the third exceedingly important alteration that the House of Lords have made in this Bill. Amendments have been thrown out by the House of Lords which were accepted unanimously by this House, and I think we have exceedingly good ground for complaint in the action of the Government in this respect, as has already been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for East Donegal. The Home Secretary and the whole House accepted an Amendment on this point, and yet the responsible Minister in the other House undertakes to throw out the Amendment to which we attach so much importance, and the Home Secretary when the Bill comes back here simply moves to agree with the alterations which have been made, and in this manner gets out of a difficulty the Government would have had to face at the time the Bill was being considered in Committee of this House. I say that we have very grave grounds for complaint against the Home Secretary, and against the Government generally, for their treatment of this Amendment. We have already endeavoured to point out to the House that miners throughout the country attach, and rightly attach, the utmost

destroy what, I believe, to be the very | the convenience of Ministers. I also best part of the Bill, and I set such believe that the working men of store upon this provision-I regard it as so exceedingly valuable for the miners, that I believe it would be better for them to reject the Bill altogether than to accept it in this mutilated form. And I do so for this reason. I believe that, though they might suffer for a few months, yet in the end they would gain because the maximum of to-day would be the minimum of next Session. You cannot possibly go back from the point you have reached in your present Bill, and next Session, probably, you would secure a very much better provision-a very much better Act for the miners. My counsel, therefore, to them would be to reject the Bill altogether, rather than submit to this mutilation. Sir, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary has already told us that the rejection of this Lords' Amendment means a delay of three days. As has already been pointed out, it means that you are to submit to anything the Lords choose to send down in the way of Amendments, lest you should be inconvenienced by a few days' delay here. Why, Sir, the suggestion is monstrous-it is monstrous on the part of the Government, and it is unworthy of the House of Commons-it is an inducement to the House of Lords in future Sessions to send down unreasonable restrictions upon provisions and measures sent up by the House of Commons. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are crying "Question!" Sir, it is past 3 o'clock in the morning, and I am not surprised some Gentlemen find it difficult to follow me. Even the Home Secretary himself seems somewhat ex-importance to this subject. Now in all hausted. But this, to me, is a matter of great significance, and hon. Members might well consider it worth their while to make an extra effort to safeguard the lives of men employed in coal mines. At any rate, I shall not be hurried by unfair shouts of "Question!" and I say it is a dangerous and monstrous argument to put forward, that, because the rejection of any of these Amendments sent down by the Lords will entail a delay of two or three days, therefore the House of Commons is to submit to the mutilation of a Bill of this description. My advice to the working men of this country is to sce that the Amendments of the Lords are treated upon their merits, and not according to

well-regulated mines, I may inform the House, the managers not only offer no objection to inspection, but they actually court inspection by the miners, or by anyone whom the miners may appoint, for the simple reason that they know that when the inspection is made there will be nothing to which the Government Inspectors can find fault, because everything that can be done is done every day the miners work-everything is done that can possibly be done to secure the life and limbs of the miners. It is only in cases where there is a want of proper management that difficulty is experienced by the miners. In these cases the owners not only object to workmen inspecting their mines under the existing Act, but

as was stated in Committee, if the work- | in order that that power may be granted men insisted on taking advantage of to the miners-a power to which they the Act of 1872, the first opportunity certainly attach the utmost importance. that presented itself would be taken to I am very sorry-I am exceedingly dismiss the men who had thus persisted sorry-that the right hon. Gentleman in maintaining their rights. It was in the Home Secretary has accepted these order to prevent such cases of hardship three very serious Amendments that as those to which I have referred have been made by the House of Lords. occurring in the future that we urged on I did hope when he and his Government the House, and especially on the Home had acquiesced in this House in these Secretary, the acceptance of the Amend- Amendments that no interference with ment of my hon, Friend the Member for them would be supported in the House East Donegal, which provided that any of Lords by any responsible Minister of two practical workmen--any two per- the Crown-that, at any rate, it would sons not being mining engineers, who only be attempted by some independent are or have been practical miners, might Member of the Upper House. But here, be appointed to inspect mines. That is when the right hon. Gentleman has to say, when I go back to my con- practically and tacitly agreed with us stituency, which I hope shortly to do, if and the Bill has been sent up to the the miners of my constituency wish to House of Lords, a responsible Minister appoint me as Inspector to inspect any of the Crown moves from his place there. particular mine, I have the liberty to throw out the Amendments on which to do so under the clause as sent up we had agreed, and to which we attached to the Lords. But if this Amend- the utmost importance. We shall take ment be agreed to, as I am certain it a Division on this question; we shall, I will be, for the Government will cer- am aware, be beaten, but we shall leave tainly beat us in the Division, the effect this House with the full determination will be that, however desirous my con- to agitate until the power contained in stituents may be to appoint me to act in this provision before it was mutilated by the capacity of Inspector, they will be the Lords is granted to us. effectually debarred from doing so by the provisions of this Bill. I will ask right hon, and hon. Gentlemen to support me if they consider that such a provision or such an object as this is a fair and laudable object. All we ask is that we shall have the fullest liberty to inspect the mines, and it is simply by thorough inspection that confidence can be created in the minds of miners as to the safety of the conditions under which they are compelled to work. And I here declare that the House of Lords have deliberately struck out one of, if not the best, provisions that were contained in the Bill. We are asked quietly and tamely to acquiesce in the action of the House of Lords. I tell you sincerely that the miners in the country will not tamely acquiesce in the alterations made in the Bill, and such is the importance I attach to the provision I shall deem my duty to agitate until the provision is granted to working miners so that they may have the power, not only to inspect the mines for themselves, but also to call in any two persons who are or have been practical miners to examine the mine in their interests. I repeat I shall hold myself free to agitate

it

We

MR. MATTHEWS: Before this Bill reaches its last stage, I must protest against the assumption of hon. Members opposite that they, forsooth, are alone the persons who care for the working miner and his safety. The hon. Member for East Donegal has lectured us upon our gross neglect. We do not accept that blame, for we are as anxious as anyone can be for it. I say that now once and for all. In the meanwhile we adhere to the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for Morpeth who, I think, can claim to represent the English working classes as fairly as anyone. think that if practical working men either belonging to the mine or not belonging to the mine, are allowed to inspect it, there is ample guarantee of security, and, although nobody appreciates more than I do the value of the services of the hon. Member for a Division of Northumberland, who spoke just now, I think, that an actual practical working miner would be better qualified to inspect a mine. The best man to be selected for the purpose must be a man working in the mine itself, or in an adjoining mine, because he is in constant touch with the men. I only desired to

MR. CUNNINGHAME GRAHAM: No; I was saying that I wished to apologize to you personally.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! There is no necessity for an apology to me personally. The apology is due to the House. I must ask the hon. Member to withdraw.

MR. CUNNINGHAME GRAHAM then withdrew.

The following is the Entry in the Votes:

Mr. Cunninghame Graham, Member for the North Western Division of the County of Lanark, having been named by Mr. Speaker as disregarding the authority of the Chair.

Motion made, and Question put, "That Mr. Graham be suspended from the Service of the House."-The House divided: - Ayes 157; Noes, 44.

MR. CUNNINGHAME GRAHAM:|to call the attention of this House to My desire is, Sir, to apologize to you the necessity of replacing the words personally. I cannot withdraw my struck out by their Lordships, and, opinion as regards the House of Lords. although hon. Members opposite may MR. SPEAKER: I understood the be impatient, I would suggest we have hon. Gentleman to express regret for plenty of time to deal with this between the words used, and to withdraw them. now and six o'clock. We are told that It is the custom for Members of this great importance is attached here, as it House to speak respectfully of Members should be, to the opinion of the hon. of the Upper House, and I understood Member for Morpeth. But, after all, the hon. Member to express regret for what did he say? He said he would having spoken disrespectfully. rather leave it to the mineowners in his district to settle this matter, and if those who are seeking a true inspection of their collieries are wise in their generation, they would agree to the clause as sent up to the Lords. But what is the case in the Welsh collieries? Before the men are allowed to make this inspection, in some parts of South Wales, the manager demands 24 hours' notice before he will permit it. What does that 24 hours mean? It means 24 hours of sweeping, of carrying yards of canvas, while otherwise they would never think of carrying it. It means 24 hours preparation for the inspection. How can an inspection made under these conditions be an inspection of the ordinary state of the colliery? It is impossible; and, therefore, a report made on such an inspection would be nothing but a sham report of the true state of the colliery. And such a report, if made MR. W. ABRAHAM (Glamorgan, and laid before a Coroner's inquest, Rhondda): Mr. Speaker, everyone who would only lead to a false conclusion has spoken on this question has ad- being arrived at; it would mislead both mitted that this question of inspection Coroner and jury. If hon, and right is of the greatest importance to the hon. Gentlemen will take the trouble to miners, that it is of vital importance so read the report on the last explosion far as the safety of life and limb in the which occurred in South Wales, what mine is concerned, that the miners will they find? They will find this should be allowed to appoint two of practice to prevail-that when the extheir own number to make a true report aminers, going their rounds in the mornas to the state of the mine. It is painful ing, find gas, they are compelled to for me to make the statement I am about come back again the same evening to to make, but it is based upon facts which the same place, and if by that time the can be proved if necessary. The impor- gas had been cleared away, then they tance of the examination—whether the are not to report that they found it, so report on it be true or false-is only that, in addition to 24 hours' notice of found out whenever a great accident the inspection, you give another 12 happens. If an explosion occur you find hours to clear away the gas, and if at that the mine owner before the Coroner's the end of that time the place is clear inquest will ask himself for the report of gas, then no report is to be made of made by the miners of the last inspec- the discovery. You may say that the tion of the mine in which they work, men are fools if they do it. But they and unless that report is a true one- do do it, and hence the necessity of an unless a proper inspection has been independent man being allowed to make made, the Coroner's jury are led to a these inspections as we recommend. No false conclusion. I wish, Mr. Speaker, one here will deny for a moment that

Mr. Speaker then directed Mr. Graham to withdraw, and he withdrew accordingly.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA (Monaghan, S.): I hope that before the House passes away from this matter the Go

upon these examinations of the collieries | end of the Session. We have no power the best owners rely, in order to get a to force the Government to do what we true report as to the state of the mines. wish, for they have a large majority, The examinations are a check against and I must congratulate them on setheir own managers, and in the best curing the attendance of so many of regulated collieries, as has already been their supporters. I agree with hon. stated, the owners themselves are in Gentlemen who have spoken in opposi favour of this examination. The mana- tion to this Amendment, that it will be gers are not always willing that the their duty, under the circumstances, to examination should be made. I solemnly do all they possibly can to get this cordeclare here that in allowing these words rected at the earliest opportunity. to be taken out of the Bill the Government will cause their Act to be weakened to a great extent, and the miners of the country, who, like myself, were pre-vernment will agree to disagree with pared ungrudgingly to give them the credit that was their due for the tendency they had shown to increase the security for the safety of life and limb in the mine, will be driven to the conclusion, seeing that on three vital points, involving the safety of life and limb, the Government have given way, that they are defeating, not us, but their own Bill, and in so doing they give the miners very good reason indeed to open again and at once their agitation. No matter what Government is in power, whether it be Tory or whether it be Liberal, if the Mines Bill fall short of giving that protection to the working men in the mines to which they are entitled, they must agitate until they get the benefit of an inspection made by independent men whom the managers cannot turn off at a day's notice.

this Amendment by the Lords. I am not prone to take part in any discussion of such a subject as the present; but I have sufficiently attended to this debate to be led to form a very strong opinion. One thing appears to have been agreed upon, both in this House and the Lords, and that is that there should be some independent inspection in these cases by men directly appointed by the miners. Now, what reason can be fairly urged that ought to have any weight with this House; why the free selection by the men of miners for the duty of inspection should not extend to those who are past miners and who have the confidence of those still at work? There may be working miners in large numbers fit for this duty; but in 99 cases out of 100 the men themselves would be incapable of pointing out one SIR EDWARD REED (Cardiff): Iman amongst themselves fit for such a confess that when I saw in the papers duty. But, in the case of those who this Amendment had been made I was have been miners, and are now indeastonished; but I will ask my hon. pendent of employment in any particular Friends whether it is of any real ser- mine, I say that they would be perfect vice to prolong this debate? We have judges as to which of them was well fitted seen repeatedly to-night that the Go-to fulfil this duty. With all respect for vernment are supported by a large the House of Lords, I say that this does majority in maintaining these Amend- appear to be an extremely objectionable mente. In regard to this particular Amendment to send back to us. We Amendment, the Government must know sent up to them a Bill, giving to the that it is the most indefensible Amend-operative miners free power to choose ment that could possibly have been introduced. They are perfectly well aware of that, and they must also be aware that the mineowners themselves do not object to the working men selecting their own representatives to inspect the mine. The change has been introduced apparently out of wantonness; but the Government must and will incur a large amount of odium in consequence of this Amendment. At the same time, it is four o'clock in the morning at the fag

somebody on their behalf to inspect the mines. The Amendment now sent down to us says-"You can choose some of your own number, but you cannot choose anyone who, having passed from among your number and acquired a higher situation in life, possesses the confidence of your class. You cannot appoint him; we shall exclude all such men from your selection." I really do hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary and Her Majesty's Go