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of this er I some distes I thick I u. A DO CANDE ment beer" cumstants : Appropriate ances, it i Lotion; and ar the ton W at he will has to mas Perhaps in think the roceed at the most ubr-NC he Genten: impossibi

401 Consolidated Fund {SEPTEMBER 12, 1887} (Appropriation) Bill. 402
bate to a termination after the speeches Byrne, G. M. MʻLaren, W. S. B.
made to-night without some further dis- Campbell, H. Mayne, T.

Carew, J. L.

Morley, rt. hon. J. cussion and answer from the Govern.

Channing, F. A. Nolan, Colonel J. P.
ment than that we have so far received. Clancy, J. J.

Nolan, J.
Sir, we have the precedent which has been Coleridge, hon. B. O'Brien, J. F. X.
fforded in the case of the Belfast riots, Conway, M.

O'Brien, P.

O'Brien, P. J. where a sworn inquiry was held into the Conybeare, C. A. V.

Cossham, H.

O'Connor, A. conduct of the police and all parties Cox, J. Ř.

O'Connor, J. (Tippry.) concerned. Although it is not pretended Crilly, D.

O'Gorman Mahon, The that the rioting in the case of Mitchels- Dillon, J.

O'Hanlon, T.

O'Hea, P.
town amounted to one-hundredth part Ellis, J. E.
of that which took place in Belfast, yet Esmonde, Sir T. H. G. Parnell, c. S.

O'Kelly, J.
we have had an intimation that two lives Fenwick, c.

Pickard, B. have been lost, and another will be lost; Flower, C.

Pickersgill, E. H. and I regret to say that we have had no Foley, P.J.

Power, P. J. intimation from the Government that

Fox, Dr. J. F.

Provand, A. D.
Fuller, G. P.

Pyne, J. D.
they intend to hold a sworn inquiry into Gardner, H. Quinn, T.
the matter. On the contrary, the Chief | Gill, H. J.

Reed, Sir E. J.
Secretary has distinctly announced that Gill, T. P.

Reynolds, W.J.
he intends to support the conduct of Gourley, E. T. Roe, T.

Gray, E. D.

Rowlands, J. the police, and to shield them from in

Grove, Sir T. F. Rowntree, J. justice and from inquiry. In the circum- Hanbury-Tracy, hon. Sexton, T. stances, we ought to have an opportunity F. S. A.

Sheehan, J. D. of moving an Amendment to the Motion Harrington, E. Sheil, E. before the House in the direction of a

Harris, M.

Shirley, W. S.
Hayden, L. P.

Stack, J.
sworn inquiry, and I propose to move a Hingley, B.

Stanhope, hon. P. J.
Resolution of that kind to-morrow if it Hooper, J.

Sutherland, A.
is in Order. If it is not in Order, I will Hunter, W. A. Tanner, O. K.
propose another Resolution.

Labouchere, H. Tuite, J.
MR. W. H, SMITH: I

Leahy, J.
be

Vivian, Sir H. H. may

Lefevre, right hon. G. Williamson, J. allowed to say one word in reference to J. S.

Wilson, H. J. an observation which has fallen from Lockwood, F.

Woodall, W. the hon. Member, The hon. Member Macdonald, W. A. Woodhead, J. must be aware that he will have an

M'Arthur, A.

M'Arthur, W. A.
opportunity of proposing a Resolution M'Donald, P. Biggar, J. G.
without the adjournment of this debate. M'Kenna, Sir J. N. Sullivan, D.
There is another stage on the third
reading, when the hon. Member will be

NOES.
in perfect Order in moving any Resolu- Addison., J. E. W. Bethell, Commander G.

R.

Agg-Gardner, J. T.
tion. Nothing so unusual, so unprece- Ainslie, W. G. Biddulph, M.
dented, and I may almost say so uncon- Aird, J.

Bigwood, J.
stitutional, has ever been seen in this Ambrose, W.

Birkbeck, Sir E.
House as that a debate on going into

Amherst, W. A. T. Blundell, Colonel H.
Committee should be continued till half.

Anstruther, Colonel R. B. H.
H. L.

Bolitho, T. B.
past 12 o'clock, and that then, no Amend.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Bond, G. H.
ment having been proposed, a Motion Baden-Powell, G. S. Bonsor, H. C. 0.
should be made for the adjournment of Bailey, Sir J. R. Boord, T. W.
the debate. The hon. Member for Cork Baird, J. G. A. Borthwick, Sir A.
will have a good opportunity of moving Balfour, G. W.

Balfour, rt. hon. A. J. Bristowe, T. L.

Brodrick, hon. W. St.
his Resolution on the third reading to- Banes, Major G. E. J. F.
morrow; and I must, therefore, resist the Baring, T. C. Brookfield, A. M.
Motion for Adjournment.

Barry, A. H. Smith

Bruce, Lord H.
Bartley, G. C. T. Burghley, Lord
Bates, Sir E.

Caldwell, J.
The House divided :-Ayes 87; Noes Beach, W. W. B.

Baumann, A. A. Carmarthen, Marq. of

Cavendish, Lord E. 228: Majority 141.

Beadel, W.J.

Chamberlain, R.
Beckett, E. W.

Chaplin, right hon. H.
AYES

Bective, Earl of Charrington, S.
Abraham, W. (Glam.) Ballantine, W. H. W. Bentinck, W. G. C. Churchill, rt. bn. Lord
Abraham, w. (Lime- Bradlaugh, C.

Beresford, Lord C. W. R. H. S.
rick, W.)
Brunner, j. T.

de la Poer

Clarke, Sir E. G.

TELLERS.

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Colomb, Capt. J. O. R. Holland, right hon. , Plunkett, hon. J. W. Tapling, T. K.
Commerell, Adml. Sir Sir H. T.

Powell, F. S.

Taylor, F.
J. E.
Holloway, G.

Quilter, W. 0.
Cooke, C. W. R.

Temple, Sir R.
Hornby, W. H. Raikes, rt. hon. H. C. Theobald, J.
Corbett, J.
Howard, J.
Rankin, J.

Tollemache, H. J. Corry, Sir J. P.

Howard, J. M. Rasch, Major F. C. Tomlinson, W. E. M. Cross, H. S. Hunt, F. S. Reed, H. B.

Tyler, Sir H. W. Crossley, Sir S. B. Isaacs, L. H.

Richardson, T. Vernon, hon. G. R. Crossman, Gen. Sir W. Isaacson, F. W. Ritchie, rt. hn. C. T. Vincent, C. E. H. Cubitt, right hon. G.

Jackson, W. L. Robertson, J. P. B. Walsh, hon. A. H. J. Curzon, Viscount Jarvis, A. W.

Robertson, W. T. Waring, Colonel T.
Dalrymple, Sir C.
Jeffreys, A. F.
Robinson, B.

Watson, J.
Davenport, H. T.
Kelly, J. R.
Ross, A. H.

Webster, Sir R. E.
Davenport, W. B.
Kennaway, Sir J. H. Royden, T. B.

West, Colonel W. C. De Lislo, E.J. L. M. P. Kenrick, W.

Sandys, Lieut. Col. T. Weymouth, Viscount De Worms, Baron H. Kenyon, hon. G. T. M.

Whitley, E. Dickson, Major A. G. Kenyon - Slaney, Col Saunderson, Col. E. J. Whitmore, C. A. Dimsdale, Baron R.

W.
Sellar,? A. C.

Wiggin, H.
Dorington, Sir J. E.
Kerans, F. H.

Selwin - Ibbetson, rt. Wilson, Sir S.
Dyke, right hon. Sir Kimber, H.

hon. Sir H. J.

Wodehouse, E. R. W. H.

King - Harman, right Sidebotham, J. W. Wolmer, Viscount Ebrington, Viscount hon. Colonel E. R. Sidebottom, W.

Wood, N. Egerton, hon. A. de T. Knowles, L.

Smith, rt. hon. W. H. Wortley, C. B. StuartElcho, Lord Lafone, A. Spencer, J. E.

Wroughton, P. Elton, C. I.

Laurie, Colonel R. P. Stanhope, rt. hon. E. Yerburgh, R. A. Evelyn, W.J.

Lawrance, J. C. Stansfeld, right hon. Young, C. E. B.
Ewart, w.
Lawrence, W. F.

J.
Eyre, Colonel H.
Lea, T.
Stephens, H. C.

TELLERS.
Fellowes, A. E.

Lechmere, Sir E. A. H. Stewart, M. J. Fergusson, right hon. Lees, E.

Douglas, A. AkersSutherland, T.

Walrond, Col. W. H. Sir J. Leighton, s.

Talbot, J. G. Finch, G. H.

Lewisham, right hon. Fisher, W. H.

Viscount

Original Question again proposed. Fitzgerald, R. U. P. Long, W. H.

MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton): Fitz-Wygram, General Lowther, hon. W. I have some reluctance in expressing Sir F. W.

Lowther, J. W. Fletcher, Sir H. Lymington, Viscount

myself, as I think it is my duty to ex. Folkestone, right hon. Macartney, W. G. E.

press myself in this debate, because I Viscount

Macdonald, right hon. cannot help recognizing that the lanForwood, A. B.

J. H. A.

guage used here may be appreciated on Fraser, General C. C.

Maclean, J. M. Gardner, R. Richard- Maclure, J. W.

the other side of the Channel by men Madden, D. H.

without the same kind of protection Gedge, S.

Makins, Colonel W.T. against undue action on the part of the Gent-Davis, R. Mallock, R.

Executive which we have here; and I Gibson, J. G.

Manners, right hon. feel reluctance even to express the prin. Giles, A.

Lord J. J. R. Gilliat, J. S.

ciples of law which seem to be clear, if Marriott, right hon. Godson, A. F.

W. T.

at the same time I have to fear, as I Goldsworthy, Major- Maskelyne, M. H. N. really have, that the expression of those General W. T.

Story-
Goschen, rt. hon. G. J. Matthews, rt. hn.

H.

principles may encourage men in asGray, C. W.

serting their rights, when the answer to Maxwell, Sir H. E. Greenall, Sir G. Mayne, Admiral R. C.

that assertion may be a bullet, directed Grimston, Viscount Mills, hon. C. W.

by the orders of the Executive. I feel Hall, C. Milvain, T.

I should be doing less than my duty if Hamilton, right hon.

Morrison, W. Lord G. F.

I did not challenge some of the monMount, W. G. Hamilton, Col. C. E.

etrous doctrines laid down from the Hartington, Marq. of

Mowbray, rt. hon. Sir
J. R.

opposite Benches this evening. I hardly Hastings, G. W. Mowbray, R. G. C.

know which doctrines are the most Havelock - Allan, Sir Mulholland, H. L. astounding, those of the right hon. H. M.

Muncaster, Lord Heathcote, Capt. J. H. Muntz, P. A.

Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Edwards

Ireland (Mr. A. J. Balfour), to whom Murdoch, C. T. Herbert, hon, S. Newark, Viscount

I listened with great attention, or those Hervey, Lord F.

Northcote, hon. H. S. of the right hon. and learned Gentleman Hill, right hon. Lord Paget, Sir R. H. A. W.

the Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Parker, hon. F. Hill, Colonel E. S.

Gibson), or those of the Leader of the Pearce, Sir W. Hill, A. S. Pelly, Sir L.

Tory democracy of England (Lord Hoare, s. Pitt-Lewis, G.

Randolph Churchill), as to the rights of Hobhouse, H. Plunket, rt. hon. D. R. the Government and the rights of indi

BON

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viduals. I understood the noble Lord / what remedy is there for individuals
the Member for South Paddington to against the Executive? To talk in this
advance the doctrine that no individual fashion, and then to declare in the House
has the right to offer physical resistance of Commons and in a reformed Parlia-
to a member of the police force under ment that the rights of Government are
any circumstances. No more monstrous unlimited-if this be the doctrine of
misconception of the law was ever stated Tory democracy, I am glad it is pro-
in any place or at any time. The reading claimed before the General Election.
of Hawkins's Pleas of the Crown, and LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
some of the old judgments, apart from I did not say that the powers of the Go-
any of the newer law, wouid have modi- vernment were unlimited, but that they
fied such a doctrine. I had the duty were to be checked only by a Court of
once, then as plaintiff, but in conse- Law or by Parliament.
quence of the previous position of de- MR. BRADLAUGH: I misunderstood
fendant, to argue that very point before the noble Lord; but it was hardly my
a full Court of Common Pleas, presided fault, because the noble Lord expressly
over by Lord Chief Justice Erlo; and if used these words, for I took them
I err to-night, it will not be for want of down-" The Government are armed
having looked up the law on the subject. with Common Law powers, which are,
I state, without fear of contradiction in my opinion, unlimited.” I say the
from any person who has the smallest Government are not so armed. I say
acquaintance with the law of England, that no sound Constitutional lawyer
that the mere fact of a man being a would say so, and I say that any man
constable gives him no right to do an

who contends that the Government in
illegal thing, and that any individual this country have unlimited powers is
whom he attacks illegally has the right one who may be a Tory, but who has no
to resist him, even if that resistance claims upon the English democracy.
involves the killing of him? (Lord LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL :
RANDOLPI CHURCHILL dissented.] The What I said was that the Executive
noble Lord the Member for South Pad- must be supported either by Parliament
dington shakes his head. I have had the or by a Court of Law.
advantage of reading the law from even MR. BRADLAUGH: Well, but being
higher authorities than the nobie Lord, sustained by a Resolution of Parlia-
and of hearing it expressed by those ment does not make that legal which
whose acquaintance with it is even more is illegal. You

may

have the maextended than his own. I will, however, jority vote in favour of illegality. I try to examine this question from a have known the noble Lord take higher point of view than that which part in a majority vote which a Court has been the standpoint of examination held to be illegal. A Court of Law from the opposite Benches. What is has described a Resolution concurred the right of proclamation of a meeting; in by the noble Lord as an illegal what effect has the proclamation upon Resolution; but the Courts had no a meeting? The right hon. and learned power over the House of Commons. Gentleman the Attorney General for The power of Parliament is unlimited ; Ireland himself

says the proclamation of but the powers of the Executive Goa meeting does not ascertain its cha- vernment are not unlimited in this racter, does not define what its cha- country, and shall not be while we racter is, and gives no character to it can prevent them. Let us try to which it otherwise would not have. And follow the arguments the Chief Seyet I understand the Government to claim cretary (Mr. A. J. Balfour) has adthat when they have proclaimed a meet- vanced. The Chief Secretary said that ing they may disperse it simply because in proclaiming a meeting they have to they have proclaimed it, and because consider the state of the district, the they choose to think it illegal. The kind of speeches that will be made, and noble Lord the Member for South Pad- the character of the men who are to atdington says—"Oh, if they have acted tend the meeting. Do you really mean wrongly, you have your legal remedy." that because some men, known to be What remedy has the man that has had seditious men, are likely to make sedihis skull blown in; what remedy have tious speeches, you are to proclaim the those who are crippled and maimed; meeting, disperse it, and shoot down the

1

persons who take any part in it? If people dispersed peaceably and quietly. men make seditious speeches prosecute In Ireland that would not have been the them; but do not arrogate powers which case. They would have shot down unno Government, except a despotic Go- fortunate wretches “misled” byme. The vernment, can ever claim to exercise. The people, so far as I know anything about noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) them, are growing indignant with the says that nothing that is done in Ireland monstrous course you—the Government will affect the right of meeting in this of this country-are pursuing in Ireland. country. I do not think it will ; but It was declared over and over again by that is all the worse, and it becomes all the Chief Secretary that there was no the more necessary that English Repre- intention of interfering with the conduct sentatives, especially if they themselves of any particular agitation in Ireland; have taken part in similar struggles, but here we see in Ennis a meeting, in should take care their Irish compatriots every sense a political one, has been inare not unfairly dealt with. I have terfered with by the Executive. You protaken part in two proclaimed meetings. claimed this meeting, and you adopted a In regard to one of them I was formally course of proceeding like thatof Mitchelsserved with the notice of proclamation. town with the lightest heart-you value Let me deal with the question of the the lives of the people so lightly that right of the police, or police reporter, you have the official who ought to be reto attend any meeting. I lay down the sponsible for the peace and prosperity of doctrine that when a meeting is held in Ireland, and whose constant effort ought a room or field the property of some to be to save the spilling of human individual, the invitation to the meeting blood, telegraphing to his representais an invitation which the promoters of tives in Ireland to shoot down the people that meeting may cancel at any moment. if necessary. A real statesman would The police have only the right of enter- go great lengths in order to avoid the ing the meeting in consequence of some use of weapons against citizens of his previous felony in connection with those country—a real statesman would never taking part in it

, and have only the right allow arms to be used against the people of ordinary individuals to attend the excepting as a last resort, and then he meeting; and the promoters of the meet- would look upon it as a thing greatly to ing have the right to say they do not be deplored. But in Ireland that is want the police there, and the police not the case. The noble Lord the Mem. have no right to offer resistance on ber for South Paddington thinks that being expelled. I put that down as the Government will keep its majority. a sound doctrine of law, and one Yes; it will keep its majority so long as which I lo not think the English there are no elections to influence the Law Officers will venture to challenge. occupants of the Treasury Bench. People I had been served with a notice pro-at the last Election believed that the claiming a meeting-a meeting which Government meant a peaceful Union, and was advertised to take place in Hyde an attempt to do their best for the Irish Park some 22 years ago—and I have people by means of some kind of amelioalso known a meeting proclaimed which rative reform. They did not imagine was to have taken place in Trafalgar that the promised local self-government Square. In both cases a written notice meant the baton of the policeman or a prohibiting the meeting was issued by rifle thrust out of a barrack window. If the Home Office. In each case I disre- there is one circumstance which has kept garded the notice, and in each case the the English people more loyal than anmeeting was held, and no violence was other it has been the largeness of their used against those taking part in the liberties with regard to public meeting. demonstrations. I had given notice Public meetings have been the safety. with regard to the Trafalgar meeting to valve for discontent-the English people the Home Secretary declaring that his have been loyal because they have had proclamation of the meeting was illegal, opportunities of protesting against that and that any attack on the part of with which they were dissatisfied. A the police would be illegal, and would distinction has been drawn by the noble be resisted by force. The result was Lord the Member for South Paddington that the meeting took place, was per between that which is illegal and that fectly orderly, and after it was held the which is legal. The noble Lord says

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that a meeting to protest against some on the Government. I can understand
grievance is legal, but that a meeting that they did not take that course be-
called in arrestment of the law, or in cause of the lack of means for giving
excitement of arrestment of the law, is effect to their views in a Division; but I
not legal. Will the Solicitor General would have much preferred to have seen
for England say that he would draw a few Members in the Opposition Lobby,
such a distinction in reference to one of so that their names might have been re-
the large anti-vaccination meetings when corded against the action of the Go-
great crowds assembled around the gaol, vernment, which, while pretending to
carried people on their shoulders, gave maintain the Union, are shooting down
them great feasts, and honoured them innocent people in Ireland.
with music all through the town? The MR. BRUNNER (Cheshire, North-
doctrine is monstrous. It is only because wich): I am about to give a reason for
you are satisfied to treat Ireland in a objecting to the policy pursued by the
different way from the way in which present Government. I went to Ireland
you would treat England when you dare a week ago, and I will give the House
to take up such a position as this. I ven- the result of my observations, with
ture to put it to you that the Executive great respect, and as calmly as possible.
Government has no powers except those When I went to Ireland, and looked
which are given to them by Statute. around me, it appeared to me as if I
There are no Common Law powers con- were in a country occupied by a foreign
ferred on the Ministry as such. The enemy. I found a military force in
Crown has some prerogatives, and by fortified barracks in every petty town
the habit of the country the Secretaries in the country. I found houses here
of State are allowed to do some things and there barricaded; I found the occu-
under cover of the Crown; but the Minis- pying force regarded with hatred. I
try have no powers except those which found the people regarding those who
are statutory, and whenever they travel resisted the occupying force as patriots.
outside those statutory powers they are I went, Sir, to Mitchelstown, in pursu-
themselves guilty of illegality, which I ance of what I considered to be a duty.
hope the country will punish. I must I found there, Sir, a proprietor living
say I am shocked that in a discussion in a palace with a park surrounded by a
which has to deal with two dead men, wall seven miles in circumference. This
and one man who is dying, Ministers palace and grounds, it seemed to me,
should think it worthy of their dignity would require at least £20,000 a-year
to bandy questions with ex-Ministers as to maintain — and as 16 chemical
to whether those ex-Ministers did similar Crosus," as The Times has the excellent
things or not. I have not been a party taste to call me, I may, possibly, be
to such action. During the little time allowed to be a judge upon such
you left me to vote in Parliament, from matters. I understood that the pro-
1880 to 1885, I voted against such powers prietor had a gross income of £15,000
being conferred. The only vote I ever a-year, and a net income of about
gave-the only votes I ever did give- £2,000 a year, and that the tenants
were for the purpose of depriving the were desirous of obtaining a reduction.
people of arms, because I did not I was informed that two of the tenants,
think that to a starving and wretched by the grace of the proprietor, bad ob-
people, oppressed and injured, arms tained permission to apply to the Court
were the sort of food to entrust them for a reduction, and that one tenant had
with. But if we deprive them of obtained 20 per cent reduction, but that
arms, we should not deprive them of thereafter no more tenants could get
every right they have, and then say permission to go to the Court. Now, it
to them—“Well, if the Executive have is evident that if the remainder of the
acted illegally, you have a remedy tenants got a 20 per cent reduction, the
against it.” What is their remedy ? nominal proprietor would have no in-
Are the people of Ireland to sue every come,

and therefore it is that the
constable and every soldier ? I am tenants have been refused permission
sorry that right hon. Gentlemen on the to go into the Court. Further, I under-
Front Bench on this ide bave not stand that the nominal proprietor and
thought it right to challenge the ques- her mortgagees had been for several
tion with a distinct expression of censure years firing cross notices to the tenants

resort, and as a things E in Ireland noble Lois dington tuzo I keep its s majority of

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