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loeked, so I moved down the square, and when The correspondent goes on to say that I got within a few yards of the corner, I heard the best proof of “the trifling nature of shots fired, and I walked across the road to the attack, if indeed it can be so dewards the Court-house. were firing blank cartridge to frighten the scribed, is the condition of the barracks people. I got down. I saw about a dozen itself.” Well, I ask, have I not made rides through the upper windows of tho police out a strong primâ facie case against the barrack blazing away. In the street”

alleged attack on the barrack? Now, and here is the most important part of from whom did the Government get his testimony, for he is the first witness their report? Seagrave was not on the in the street while the firing was actually scene. Nobody could find him. Somegoing on

body said he had gone to find the -"in the street near the barrack there were Riot Act, which he had forgotten. few, if any, people at the time, and the whole Other persons said he was up in Mr. get into the Court-house ; but they would not Eaton's. He was not on the spot. Therelet us in at the front door, so I had to go round fore, he could not give an acoount of a long way."

what took place. Was it from the This is the only independent witness County Inspector the Government had who was in the street when the firing their story? I had him by the arm for was going on, and his testimony is that a considerable time, and I can state, there were few, if any, people at all in from my own knowledge, that he could the neighbourhood of the barrack. I not have seen-nor was he in the state of will finish with a quotation from an in mind to judge of anything that was dependent witness, who is the only wit going on. I wish to ask on what witness ness dealing with the nature of the the Government rely; and I say that stone-throwing. It is taken from an the people of this country, as well as account published by an eye-witness in this House, will expect some indepenthis day's Irish Times, also an unfriendly dent and credible confirmation of this He says

alleged attack on the barrack before " What I do know is this—that when I they will be able to wash their hands of arrived, there were some men she crossed after responsibility for the death of these the police had fired)—there were some men out men at Mitchelstown. When I left the in the street throwing stones at the barrack,

barrack, I went through the square in which was too distant for thein to reach. Large stones were thrown in the direction of company with some priests, and engaged the barrack ; but they also fell short of the in clearing the town, and in persuading door. It was when these stones were being all the people to go home, and to abandon thrown that the police fired the shots to which all further attempt at holding a meeting. I have referred.'

An incident then took place which I shall Therefore, the account of this witness is leave to speak for itself. Whilst we were that stones were fired in the direction engaged in clearing the square, a body of the barracks, which fell short of the of about 50 police, with rifles, appeared mark. I would like to point out, I have on the scene, and drew up in the middle quoted the testimony of a number of of the square. They consisted chiefly, witnesses besides what I saw with my I believe, of a reinforcement who had own eyes, which I think would be in charged into the square, batoning the itself sufficient to prove that all the talk people, after the first body had fled to about the attack on the barracks was their barracks. They had been attacked absolutely without foundation. Every with stones, and had fled into the single witness unites in the statement priests' house, and elsewhere, for refuge, that no such thing occurred, and that and they were not followed into the there was no justification for the firing houses. They emerged, and were joined at all. Here is a quotation which has by another body of police, and these 50 just been supplied to me from the special or 60 men drew up in the middle of the report in another hostile

square. Recollect that some of these Sunday Observer. The correspondent of inen were cut and bleeding; some of that paper says

them had been struok with stones. The " Having witnessed the attack myself, I can square was full with people. Many of bear testimony to the fact that whatever our men were cut also. A drunken man, stones were thrown at the building from the

or a thoughtless child, could have flooded corner of the square were thrown by a few finall boys, who exposed themselves in the

the square with blood in five minutes ; most foolhardy manner to the fusillade,"

because both this large body of police,

paper, The

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and the large crowd of poople standing "Very likely,” said he. There had there, were smarting from their wounds. I been no disturbance in the town for the I asked where was the commanding offi- last quarter of an hour, and there was cer? They did not know. I asked no man who had spared himself to get another man. There was no command the people away. The only answer I ing officer. I said — "Where is Captain got from him was—“Very likely." Seagrave ?"! The mau said—“I don't "For goodness sake don't do that, we know." “Can anybody find him ?” “I are doing our best to get all the people don't know anything about him." out of the town." He turned away and “Who is your commanding officer ?” used some oath. could not exactly “ The only commanding officer we have say what it was; but so far as I could is the Head Constable." I asked the make out it was—“I am not here to Head Constable,

in com-

answer the questions of every damned mand ?" He said, “I believe I am." Jackanapes that chooses to address me." I asked the Head Constable to take his I walked away. We worked away

for men back to the barrack. He replied - two or three hours endeavouring to get -I cannot stir the men; I have no the town clear; but all the danger of a authority.” " Where is the officer to be disturbance appeared over, and the best got?" "I do not know, Sir.” Now, is proof of the correctness of my judg: not that a nice state of things ? For ment was that this young officer agreed five or ten minutes these men were with me that the best thing to do was to drawn up on the square without an get the police to the barrack. I hope I officer, some of them wounded; and all have not injured his chance of promoI could do was to get five or six priests, tion by mentioning his name. I do and as many people of influence as I believe that it was largely owing to his could, to stand around them as near as action that we were spared the loss of possible, because the square was like a any more lives in Mitchelstown. That is powder magazine, and one stone would all I have got to say about the case. I have caused the police to fire. Fortu- do not wish to use strong language nately a young officer arrived, and strayed about it. I think the case speaks for across the square, and took command at itself. We in Ireland have felt bit

I said to him—“Would it not be terly the cruel taunts which have been well to take these men to the barrack ? levelled at our heads by The Times I will give you my word that we will newspaper. When we disperse quietly clear the town." "I think so," said le, we are called cowards. We were told, and ordered them to barrack at once. when we did not lead an unarmed mulThat was the next stage of the proceed. titude to storm the hill of Ballycoree ings, and then we proceeded with the against the armed forces of the Crown, work of clearing the town; and then that we were cowards; we were told, the great hero of the day arrived upon because we did not lead the people up to the scene, with a cigar in his mouth, storm the barrack at Mitchelstown, that and with him arrived 60 military. The "the chivalry of Tipperary was not military at that moment marched across rallied." That is the way in which The the square. I followed them down, and Times newspaper seeks to preserve the they drew up in line, facing down the peace. I have never altered in the town, away from the barrack. For the advice which I have given to the people last 10 minutes we had been driving the in this regard, nor shall I alter it on the people down in that direction away from provocation of base and cowardly sneers the barrack, and the street was thronged like these. The people of Tipperary, with people. We had massed the when armed and disciplined, and well people down there, and the priests were ied, have shown on many a hard fought engaged in shoving them gradually field that they are slow to turn their out of the town. At that moment backs on any foe. But now, if they Seagrave appeared with a cigar in show a peaceable disposition, and dishis mouth, and with his hands in perse when called upon to do so by the his pockets. He came marching along. armed forces of the Crown, they are told I walked up to him and said – “Surely that they are cowards because they do you will not bring the troops down that not assail armed men without arms part of the town, where we have got all themselves. As I have said, not with. the people removing out of the town ?" standing this provocation of threats and insults, I shall not alter the advice I the people. I venture to say without have always given to the people of Ire- hesitation that it will be difficult to find land; and while we in Ireland shall a precedent in our Parliamentary history continue to hold our meetings in spite for the conduct which ex-Ministers of of Proclamations, my advice will always the Crown have found it to be within be to the people, when required by the their power to pursue. Sir, on questions forces of the Crown, to disperse without of policy the largest latitude is allowed violent resistance, putting the Govern. hv our Parliamentary oustoms to the ment to the shame of violating the law, Opposition. I acquit hon. Members below and allow the cruel wrong of using force the Gangway opposite from all blame for to disperse these meetings, not opposing the action they have taken in this debate. force by force, but leaving the Govern- I offer this remark rather to the Front ment in the face of the democrawy of Opposition Bench, and I doubt if you England to break the law and break up can find a precedent; and if you can find these peaceable meetings-convinced as a precedent, I doubt whether it will be I am that by pursuing this policy we a precedent which will commend itself shall raise in this country such a storm to the minds of the leaders of the Oppoof popular indignation that the hour sition, for ex-Ministers of the Crown to will soon come when we in Ireland shall hurry up specially to town in a demonhave the same right of public meeting strative manner, in a manner calculated which you have struggled for and per- to excite public attention, not to oppose sisted in maintaining in England. the Government on a question of policy, LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL | but rather to bring to bear all the forces (Paddington, S.): Although, Mr. or their condemnation and all the weight Speaker, this Parliamentary Session of their influence on the Executive in its has been protracted beyond all pre executive capacity. Never have I seen, cedent, and although the labours of during the 12 or 13 years that I have hoa. Members have been hard beyond been in this House, and I do not supall record which our Parliamentary pose I shall ever see it again, such annals tell of, still I do not myself curious conduct as I have seen to-night regret, and I do not think that any on the part of ex- Ministers of the Crown. Member who has been present this I have seen the Leader of the Opposition evening will regret, that this debate has (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), I have seen the taken place. In the first place, it occurs right hon. Gentleman the late Chief Seto me that when any great tragedy has cretary to the Lord Lieutenant (Mr. occurred which has moved people's John Morley), I have seen the right miods, it is well that Parliamentary de-hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby bate as to the facts of that occurrence (Sir William Harcourt), who was Home should be immediate and prompt; and, Secretary in a former Government-I in the second place, from a Party point of have seen them sitting there on that piew, I can conceive nothing more satis- Bench, and although they could have no factory than that we should have had knowledge whatever of what has taken this debate, because I can imagine place at Mitchelstown they have ostennothing which is more likely to bring sibly identified themselves with every vividly before the country and to re- opinion, with regard to those occurrences, mind the country as to the nature of the which has fallen from hon. Gentlemen struggle in which the Government and below the Gungway opposite, and to the Unionist Party are engaged with such an extent has it heen carried that regard to the government of Ireland every statement of fact which has the nature of the strnggle, the difficulties been made by hon. Gentlemen who have to which the Government and the Party spoken from below the Gangway has behind it had to contend with, and the received the enthusiastic applause of the unlimited resources of the opponents Leader of the Opposition. I believe with whom they have to fight. The conduct such as that to be unpreceElection which brought this Parliament dented. It may be right; but how coninto being took place upon that struggle duot such as this is to contribute to the


that issue, though circum. stability of the Executive Government stances of one kind and another may I fail to understand. [Interruption upon bare combined to remove the sharp- the Benches below the Oppositi'ın Gangway.] ness of the impression from the mind of I listen with the utmost attention to the VOL 000XXI. (THIRD SERIES.



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remarks which hon. Gentlemen opposite Harcourt), and, of course, I thought it address to the House, and I claim from very full of legal lore and of learning, them the same amount of patience for some of which seemed to me to be musty, myself. I say that I fail to understand but all of which would have been inhow conduct such as this upon the part teresting if Parliament had not been of ex-Ministers of the Crown, and sitting for such a length of time. Under those who, perhaps, hope to be again the circumstances, I think we might Ministers of the Crown, is to contribute have been spared the lucubrations on to the stability of the Executive Govern- the 18th century in which he indulged; ment. It seems to me that conduct such but what has struck me about this whole as this throws a lurid light upon the business very much is, that not only has wild appeals which have been made by the conduct of the Opposition been the Leader of the Opposition and his unusual, but that the Opposition have Colleagues to the Irish people to exer- made a great tactical blunder in putting cise patience in the coming crisis. We up the ex-Home Secretary to lead the have had most impressive, and, indeed, attack. If they had put up the right pathetio appeals to the Irish people from hon. Gentleman the Member for New. that Bench opposite, not to allow the castle (Mr. John Morley), we should Government to provoke them into any certainly have listened to anything which act of resentment against the Executive fell from him with much more attention Government; but what have we to think, and respect than we listen to anything and what have the Irish people to think, which falls from the right hon. Gentleof the value of these appeals, when the man the Member for Derby. But there most ferocious, unmitigated, and un. is this to be said—that it is not possible limited condemnation of the Irish police for the right hon. Gentleman the Mem. and of the Irish Government in this ber for Derby to make a speech about House receives the enthusiastic support law and order in Ireland which does not and the enthusiastic applause of the recall vividly to our minds speeches made Leader of the Opposition? Do hon. and by him, more forcible and more eloquent, right hon. Gentlemen opposite think in a sense diametrically opposed to that the Irislı people are unacquainted that he delivered to-night, and that is with what happens in this House ? On why I say the Opposition have made a the contrary, the Irish people throughout tactical blunder in putting him up to the length and breadth of Ireland are lead the attack. I remember there mas better acquainted with what happens in once a gentleman who stood for a conthis House than any similar portion of stituency in the South of England as a people throughout the United Kingdom. strong Protestant Unionist, but he was What do they see? They see the whole defeated. He was anxious to get into serried ranks of ex-Ministers bustling Parliament, and a friend of his

, an up to London in order to lend their Irishman, said to him—"I think I can sanction to every species of disgrace get you a seat in the South of Ireland.” and abuse being poured upon the officers He said "Oh, yes; that will do very of the law and the officers of the Crown. well;" but he said " On what platform The right hon. Gentleman the Member shall I have to stand ? " And his for Mid Lothian and his Colleagues are friend said—“Oh, as a strong Catholic apparently under the impression that Home Ruler.” The gentleman who such a course of conduct and such a had been defeated said "But won't it course of policy is likely to conduce to be rather a sudden change ?” This peace and to order in Ireland. That has Irish friend said—“Oh, dear, no; therə struck me very much indeed. I do not will be no difficulty in the matter as know whether it has struck hon. Mem. | long you

allow a decent inbers opposite, or hon. Members on this terval to elapse." The great weakness side of the House; but I do assert, with of the right hon. Gentleman's (Sir out fear of contradiction, that conduct of William Harcourt's) position is, that he this kind on the part of ex-Ministers of has not allowed a decent interval to the Crown, whether it is right or wrong, elapse between his preaching of the is without precedent in the anuals of the doctrines of Lord Sidmouth and Lord House of Commons. Now, I come to Castlereagh and his preaching of the the speech of the right hon. Gentleman principles of Mr. Fox® and Mr. Burke. the Member for Derby (Sir William He now preaches the principles of Mr.


Fox and Mr. Burke; but it is only about certain newspapers which are now cuir12 months ago he was preaching the rent, and to some extent popular, in the doctrines of Lord Sidmouth and Lord Metropolis, which convey their news to Castlereagh. That is a tactical blunder, the public in paragraphs. The stateand no amount of dialectical ingenuity ment of the hon. Gentleman did not will do away with it in the public mind. seem to me to be altogether connected. People cannot forget that the right hon. It was really a series of paragraphs which Gentleman the Member for Derby was succeeded each other without much conthe greatest exponent of the government nection as far as I could make out. of the bayonct, and therefore for him to I put aside the statement of the hon. act as he is now acting is either the Member for Northampton, because I depth of audacity or of burlesque. Well, have difficulty in regarding him as now, Sir, what I want to ask the Front altogether serious in this matter. I Opposition Bench is this. If they have take the statement of the hon. Member such serious accusations to bring against for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), and the the Government as they have brought statement of the right hon. Gentleman to-night, if they identify themselves the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieuwith all the expressions which have tenant of Ireland (Mr. A. J. Balfour), fallen from hon. Gentlemen below the and I find that the evidence with regard Gangway, why have they raised no to these occurrences is terribly conflictdefinite issue in the House? Why have ing; and I say it is quite impossible for they confined themselves merely to the House by any means whatever to making vague and inconclusive speeches? arrive at any conclusion as to wheWhy have they not brought their opi-ther the Executive have been right nion to the test of the Division Lobby? or wrong in this matter-there must be Not only have they not set up any dis- a judicial inquiry. The hon. Member tinct issue, not only have they not ven- for Northampton stated that the matter tured to propose to the House any would not form the subject of a judicial definite Amendment, but I believe that inquiry, because the Government would the House has never been called upon take no notice of the affair. When the to discuss a more confused and indefinite Coroner's jury returns a manifestly issue. We have two questions before ridiculous verdict, that, no doubt, is no us. We have, in the first place, before sufficient ground for the Government us the question of the general conduct instituting criminal proceedings against of the Government in regard to public the persons incriminated by that verdict; meetings in Ireland, as exemplified in but the case is different where the verthe case of the Ennis meeting. And, dict is not manifestly absurd. But, bein the second place, we have the other sides this, I believe it is in the power of question with regard to the action of any individual to go before à Grand the Executive at Mitchelstown, and the Jury, and prefer an indictment against results which have flowed therefrom. any individual; and if the Grand Jury Now, in my opinion, the House is not believe that a prima facie case has been in a condition to decide upon the events made out, it will, in due course, go for at Mitchelstown. We havə heard several trial. I believo I am right in saying statements upon the matter. We have that, therefore, there is no question heard the statement of the hon. Gentle- whatever that if hon. Members wish man the Member for East Mayo (Mr. that this matter should become the subDillon), a lucid and impressive state-ject of judicial inquiry it must so bement from his point of view, which I come, and it is only a judicial inquiry listened to with great attention; but we which can determine the rights or the have also heard the statement of the wrongs of the question which has been Minister of the Crown, the Chief Secro- put before the House by the hon. Memtary to the Lord Lieutenant (Mr. A. J. ber for East Mayo and the right hon. Balfour), also extremely lucid, most Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the impressive, and spoken evidently under Lord Lieutenant; therefore I hope the the sense of heavy and great Ministerial hon. Member for East Mayo will not responsibility. And then, Sir, we had think me wanting in respect for him if the statement of the hon. Member for I find myself quite unable to follow him Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), which controversially through the details of seems to me to resemble in its nature his very interesting statement. Rather

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