of the country, because the people will not | John Gorst) that it would be well if send any more of their children to school these complaints could be brought before than those who at present go; and the House when there was ample time they will not thank you, therefore, for to discuss them. I am quite sure, with adding to this expenditure if it is to respect to these complaints, that the be under the condition of their send evidence given on the side of the Natives ing their children to school more and would often be rebutted by the evidence more. I am one of those who, upon given on the other side, and that if they this question, may, perhaps, be called were examined by an impartial tribunal advanced thinkers. I am one of those a vast amount of vapid, frothy, and who believe that education amongst the groundless fault-finding would be dissiNative people of India will never prosper pated. It has been said that the pledges as it should until we make up our minds which were given by Her Majesty in to adopt that mild form of compulsion Her Most Gracious Proclamation of which we have in our own country, and 1858, when she assumed the direct which every civilized country in the Sovereignty of India, have not been world has adopted. Of course, we shall fulfilled. I have heard it said in this have to gradually and gently introduce very debate that those pledges have been that system; but until that happy time shamefully broken. Sir, I deny that. I comes when we have a compulsory say the pledges have been fulfilled so far system, we may depend upon it that the as practicable, though not to the utmost increase of scholars in the schools and the extent the Natives could desire, because increase in the number of children going such fulfilment in one or even two generato school will be comparatively small. tions would be impossible. Much, howThere never will be a proper system of ever, has been done since the Proclamaeducation such as will make this teeming tion. More has been done for the population a wise and understanding Natives than was done in centuries prepeople until we adopt this compulsory vious to British rule. The salaries of system of education. Well, Sir, in con the Natives have been increased; their nection with education in India, we have tenure of office has been rendered more the same cry there that we have here certain; their promotion has been accelein this country. The words "technical rated; and their right to furlough and education" resound from one end of pension has been fully recognized. In India to the other as they do here, and consequence of the change in their technical education is, if possible, even position there has been a marked immore regarded there than here, because provement in their integrity and trustthere is no doubt that our system has too worthiness. So sure as we have inmuch tended towards literature and creased their emoluments, and estaphilosophy, and too little towards science blished their position, and rendered them and industry, so that the Natives of secure in the fruits of their intellectual India, when leaving our higher schools, and official labour so sure have they been can find nothing to do but to resort either found to grow rapidly in moral stature to the Bar or remain waiting in attend- with respect to trustworthiness and effiance outside the precincts of the public ciency. Well, Sir, we have now done offices-namely, seeking for employment much to advance them in the Public Serinside. Of course, the object is to teach vice not only in Ministerial offices, but the Natives all those arts and sciences in high Administrative offices, and we which have made us what we are, and have placed them in the highest posito induce them, instead of attending over- tions even in the Civil Service. We may much to literature and philosophy, to pro- truly say, as Queen Dido said to Eneas, ceed more in the direction of those fruitRegni in larte locav." We desire that ful and useful ways of art and science. they shall have all these benefits; we This leads me to the last topic with desire that they shall have a practical which I shall trouble the Committee-share in the Government of their own namely, what may be called the hopes and aspirations of the educated Natives, of which we have heard so much tonight. I am quite aware of this fact, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India (Sir country. We have given them repre- there, because they were established by our utmost for the Natives, socially Sir Bartle Frere. I promoted and en- politically, intellectually, and in every couraged them; and so did the right other respect, we must yet take care that hon. Member for North East Manchester in the Legislative Councils of which they (Sir James Fergusson) who is sitting are to be Members, and, indeed, are But, Sir, I am here to testify already Members, and I hope will become to what was done in Calcutta, for I did Members in increasing proportions, we it myself. I sacrificed all municipal must take care to preserve a preponderpatronage in my hands, and decided that ance of the European voice. After all, it the people there should elect representa- is upon us that the responsibility of detives to manage the municipal concerns fending the country must ever rest, and of one of the greatest cities and of the those who have the responsibility of degreatest parts of the British Empire. fending the country must have the power I quite admit that there was a good deal in the last resort of governing it. Alof difficulty in getting them to under- though we may try to advance the stand the system. Though they were Natives in every civil capacity throughto vote for their own popular candidates, out the country, yet there are certain there was difficulty in getting them to magisterial and administrative appointexercise the franchise, in inducing them ments which must be held by Europeans. to go to the poll. Now, I suppose, after For, in the hour of extreme danger, 10 or 15 years have elapsed, they are no such as the Mutiny, it is upon the courlonger apathetic about the exercise of age, resolution, energy, and tenacity of their electoral rights; but I believe the Anglo-Saxon alone that the Governthey would almost rise in rebellion if ment must depend. If, in the time of those rights were threatened. They will peace, we should ever be so fatally unrapidly learn the electoral system. I wise as to place all these appointments hope they will learn nothing but the in the hands of Natives in India, in the blessings of it. I hope they will never day of trial we may be found wanting, learn some of the abuses of it which and the words of doom may be written have existed in our own country, and in against our Empire. Therefore I say Trans-Atlantic regions. We feel that, that while we have the European if they are to be educated in the highest voice prevalent in our Councils we sense of the word, they must learn to must have European intellect in all take a share in the government of their the high places of Civil Administration own country, and especially in the man- also. I thank the Committee most agement of their own local affairs. They heartily for the fairness with which will then feel that they have a part in they have listened to me; and I only their own country, and that it would be desire, further, to point out that while worth while in the day of trial and dan- we are doing our duty to the Natives, ger to come forward and fight, if neces- we are undoubtedly benefiting oursary, for their institutions. But, while selves. I am not ashamed to say that I admit all this, while I admit it as in the British Legislature, because, after much as any Member below the Gang- all, this Empire does not exist only for way opposite, yet before I sit down I the benefit of the human race, but also must give a word of the most solemn for the benefit and advancement of warning to this House and the country British industry, British trade, and not to pursue the system too far. There British transactions of every kind. And is a great deal of work in the Public if we manage India well, and develop Service which cannot be performed effi- | her materially, and promote her morally ciently by men who do not possess European nerve. Such work is to be found in the Public Works Department, in the department of the telegraphs, and upon the railways. For instance, I do not know whether hon. Members would like to entrust an express train to a Native driver. There are certain kinds of civil employment which we must reserve to ourselves; and therefore, having done and intellectually, we shall secure the second greatest market for our goods in the world-I say the second, counting China alone as greater. Therefore, we have every reason for keeping India, for holding by her, for clinging to her and doing our duty by her. We may be confident that in so doing we shall be sustaining our position as an Imperial Power, and, at the same time, promoting the best interests of the electors and con- inclined to take a gloomy view, espestituents whom we represent in the British House of Commons. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirkcaldy, &c.): My hon. Friend the Mem ber for the Evesham Division of Worcester (Sir Richard Temple), who has just addressed the House, is a man who has had immense experience. I followed his footsteps very closely in Indian fields, and I am bound to agree with him in most things. I do agree with him in most things, and I shall certainly not undertake the task of criticizing him in what he said, except to say that I think his views are covered over with a general optimism which makes it necessary we should receive them with some little deductions. At the same time, I thoroughly acknowledge the excellence of my hon. Friend's speech. As regards the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst), I cannot help thinking that the hon. Gentleman took a rather couleur de rose view of the state of Indian finance. It is somewhat unfortunate that the Statement issued about a week ago was altogether different from the speech of the hon. Gentleman. All the statements in the Memorandum were by the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary entirely altered, and perhaps it would have been better if we could have had given to us an epitome of what was coming, instead of an epitome which turned out to be a little out of date. The hon. Gentleman told us that last year things turned out better than they were expected to turn out, but that the Estimate for the present year turned still more to the worse. There is a fortune that attends the mistakes of Indian finances, and that is, that they have a happy way of balancing one another. The £500,000 to the good last year and the £600,000 to the worse this year balance matters pretty well. The unfortunate part of the matter is that of the series of years under review the years in which the mistake is for the better are the first years, and the years in which the mistake is for the worse are the later years. In this matter I am bound to say I cannot take the optimist view of Indian finance taken by the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Evesham Division (Sir Richard Temple). On the contrary, I am rather cially as the first year to which the Under Secretary of State for India alluded, was the year in which there was a considerable sinking fund in the shape of the Famine Fund, while in the last year the sinking fund has entirely disappeared, and you have nothing but barely balanced estimates of receipts and disbursements. I will not go into the large question whether India should be governed by this House. I am one of those who doubt very much that it is possible for this House, with its own great concerns to attend to, to attend equally and properly to the great concerns of India. A Committee would certainly be no improvement on the Indian Council. I do think it is an excellent thing that a spirit of healthy inquiry should prevail in this House, and to that extent I am inclined to think it a good thing that this House should take an active interest in Indian affairs. When we come to the actual administration, I confess I wholly doubt whether, in our present procedure, at any rate, it is possible or desirable it should be centred in this House. Now, coming to the question of finance, I do not, as I have said, take so hopeful a view as my hon. Friend opposite (Sir Richard Temple) and some other Members have taken. In fact, for many years past I have always been regarded as a pessimist in regard to Indian finance. The view presented to us has always been rose-coloured in the event of something not happening, but that something has happened and turned the rose colour into something very different. A sinking fund is in my opinion a necessary part of sound finance. There is a great probability of increased expense in regard to the pay of Native soldiers. I have very long been of opinion that we cannot reduce the numbers of the Army. On the contrary, I have long suspected that we shall have to increase them. As regards the Frontier, I am one of those who have always deprecated the cry of "Wolf!" in which so many have indulged for the last 50 years. At the same time, I have always admitted that the time would come when the isolation of India would cease, and India would be coterminous with another great Empire. That day is fast approaching, and the result is that we have been involved in excessive expenditure. I am sorry to think that all those pessimistic predictions do certainly at the present moment seem to be coming true. We have attained our present financial balance in India only by stopping the Famine Fund, a fund very much in the nature of a sinking fund. We have also attained our position by trenching very largely upon that decentralization of finance which has been established. We have recouped the Government of India for its losses by making all the various Provincial Governments contribute very largely from their savings. There is no doubt that it is a very great evil. Then, since we sacrificed the Custom Dues, we have imposed an Income Tax, and we have imposed additional taxation. Undoubtedly it is the case that our finances are by no means so flourishing as they were. We have at present no means of making provision for the event of famine or war. I do not take the view that my hon. Friend (Sir Richard Temple) has taken-namely, that our present position on the Frontier Question is one which can be looked upon with pleasure and hopefulness. On the contrary, my impression is that the Frontier Question is one which must continue to cause great expense, risk, and anxiety. Although it is satisfactory to have come to a settlement with Russia, there is some force in the view that an elastic frontier may involve less risk than a fixed one, which we are bound to see is not transgressed, and the trangression of which must inevitably involve us in war. Then, again, as regards Burmah, I am unable to take the view that there is any hope that in the very early future Burmah will be a paying country. We have learned from the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for India that at present there is a very serious deficit in respect of Burmah, something like £2,000,000 sterling. I do not see any prospect of that deficit being reduced within reasonable limits in any short time. I fear our difficulties and expenses have increased, and that the diminution of them is quite uncertain. The question is how are these difficulties to be met? I do not myself believe very thoroughly in the elasticity of the Revenue of which so much has been said. Apart from the increase of territory, which at least involves increase of expenditure, I cannot see that the Land Revenue has largely increased, or that the Opium or that the Salt Revenues have increased. The only rapidly increasing revenue is that of Excise, and I confess I have great doubts on that subject. This revenue has in the last 10 years very nearly doubled. That is an extraordinary advance. The revenue has increased by leaps and bounds, and I was very loth to believe that to the Governments in India could be attributed any carelessness with regard to the moral and social condition of the people. I know my hon. Friend the Member for Flintshire (Mr. Samuel Smith), associated with the Archbishop of Canterbury and very many well known persons, has expressed before the country views which seem to attribute to the Indian Government very great recklessness in this respect. I have said that I would wait until I saw the facts and figures before I would believe anything of the kind. Having seen the facts and figures, I am bound to say that I cannot go so far as my hon. Friend opposite (Sir Richard Temple) in asserting that the Indian Government can be accredited with sufficient concern as to the source from which the revenue is derived. afraid the revenue has reached a point which gives rise to doubt, and that in this one instance the decentralization of finance from which so much benefit has been said to arise has to a certain extent been disadvantageous, because it has given some of the Local Governments too great a temptation to raise large revenue by a system under which drinking has been increased. I am somewhat disappointed at the Report from the Government of India which has been largely relied on in the House. That Report seems to me not judicial in tone. I am afraid the Government of India have allowed the Departmental officials to draw up that Report, because it is drawn up in the tone of an advocate, and in order to show that everything is right, rather than in the tone of a judicial reviewer, examining and candidly telling us where there is right and where there is wrong. I do not profess to know the details of any other Province than that of Bengal. Bombay, which has been administered by two right hon. Gentlemen opposite, is certainly far and away the most drunken Province in India; but I am free to confess from the reading of the Report that I am to Expenditure. No doubt, reforms have been in some directions made; but fresh demands are made in others. I think we are too liberal to our own countrymen in India, and I have some apprehension that the Staff of the Army is paid too highly. Their pay is enormous as compared with the pay in all the other Armies of the world, and it is higher than under the old system. This is not a matter on which I can express a very confident opinion; but it is one which I am convinced needs to be looked a good defence has been made out in regard to the Government of Bombay. Of late years, the policy of the Government of that Province has been to raise increased revenue by increased taxation. In the Punjaub we have been able to keep down the consumption of spirits, and I do not see why the same thing should not be done in other Provinces of India. I have been astonished, looking at the figures, to see how small the consumption of spirits is in the Punjaub. I formerly knew the Punjaub better than any other Province, and this I know-into. There is one point in the statethat a great deal of spirits was drunk there. The Sikhs have been accustomed to drink a good deal, and one would have expected that there would have been a larger consumption of spirits in the Punjaub than in any other Province of India; but, as a matter of fact, the consumption has been very much less. It has been effectually kept down. I very much fear that some other Governments cannot be credited with equal concern as to the source from which this increased Revenue is derived, and I think some blame may lie on some Administrations in that respect. As I said, I cannot speak in detail; but I do know something with regard to this subject in Bengal. The Revenue went up at one time by leaps and bounds, and that excessive increase of Revenue was concurrent with the change of system, when the Government of Bengal went back from the civilized system to the older system. The change was followed by almost a doubling of the Revenue from spirits; but the result was a great increase of drunkenness and of the craving for drink. I have conferred with the last Lieutenant Governor of Bengal, and I am sorry to say that what he tells me leaves no doubt in my mind that there was a few years ago a great increase of facilities for drinking in Bengal, and that with the increase of Revenue some of the people became demoralized. I know that the late Lieutenant Governor did a great deal in order to go back to the better system; but the resistance to the change was so great that this has not yet been fully effected. Therefore, I cannot but think there was a vicious change made in the Excise system, and I am full of apprehension that the increase of Excise Revenue may in some cases have been obtained at the cost of evil in the habits of the people. Then, with regard VOL. CCCXXI. [THIRD SERIES.] ment of the hon. Gentleman on which I have a great deal of doubt-namely, that the increase of Debt is not a real increase of Debt. SIR JOHN GORST: I did not intend to say there was no increase of Debt. I said that the deficit of 2,800,000 tens of rupees was reduced by large sums applied in reduction of Debt and investments in Public Works. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I am glad that is so; but, as the hon. Gentleman has stated, there is a considerable increase of Debt, and there is a larger increase than appears in the Paper, because there is a considerable transfer going on between accounts attributable to real Debt and accounts attributable to works, which in the time of former Governments were taken out of Revenue, but which you are now taking out of capital. I will not argue whether this is right or wrong; but I am afraid the tendency now is to throw too much on capital and too little on income. I cannot view this change without some uneasiness; it is a thing which gives me considerable doubt as to our Indian system of finance. I am one of those who agree with the hon. Member for the Evesham Division (Sir Richard Temple) in thinking that railways have been of enormous benefit to India. They have improved India morally and socially, and I believe they should be encouraged. ranteed railways--the East India, the Great Indian, Peninsula, and the Bombay and Baroda Railways, laid down by the wisdom of Lord Dalhousie-all pay handsomely; but, on the other hand, it seems to me that some imprudent guarantees have been given of late years. I am apprehensive that the Government have been too much open to pressure from Syndicates, and I believe it would be much more profitable if, instead F The old gua |