which requires earnest attention on the | being propounded to the Members of part of the Government. Passing to Her Majesty's Government with regard another point, I can see no reason why to our Empire in the East, And they the seat of Government in India should may further derive hope from the fact be removed every year from Calcutta to that this Parliament, and the ParliaSimla. It seems to me absurd that the ment immediately preceding it, being Governor General of India, with all his the two Parliaments elected under a staff and appurtenances, should remove very extended franchise, have contained once a-year to the Hills at great expense a far larger proportion than any which to the people and with great incon- preceded them of men practically convenience to the commercial world. This versant with the affairs of the East; and is a practice which I trust Her Majesty's I am convinced that if we in any way Government will consider, with the view understand the feeling of our constiof putting a stop to an unwarrantable tuents, there is no Member of this charge thrown upon the country by the House who cannot assure the people of highly-paid servants which we have in India that the mass of the electors of India. Then, Sir, I think that the this country have an abiding interest in salary of the Governor General of India, the welfare of their fellow-subjects in the which amounts to £25,000 a-year, and East. Further, most of us who are well the salaries of the other highly-paid acquainted with those regions can bear officials of the Government, ought to be personal testimony to the fact that there reduced. An hon. Friend of mine has is not a city or any great centre of inrecommended that a Standing Committee telligence in the United Kingdom to of this House should be constituted to which they are not invited to give an deal with all questions relating to the exposition and explanation with regard Government Revenues and other matters to the position of affairs in India. I relating to India, and I am of opinion know, of course, that many hon. Memthat this would be a wise course for Herbers will take this occasion for pressing, Majesty's Government to adopt. It is quite true that there is the India Council; but we in this House have not the control over the proceedings of that Council which we have a right to exercise with regard to the affairs of India. I do not see the necessity for this old form of government continuing to exist; and for my part, as I have said, I think it would be wise on the part of Her Majesty's Government to set up a Standing Committee of the House of Commons in its stead. SIR RICHARD TEMPLE (Worcester, Evesham): I think I may join with hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House in offering congratulations to the Under Secretary of State for India in respect of the very able statement which ho has made to us this evening, and also in respect of the interesting Memorandum which he has circulated beforehand for our information. Sir, it may be thought that the people of India will be discouraged when they hear of this Indian Budget being brought before the House with diminished numbers, and at the close of the Session; but I believe they can derive some consolation from the fact that, during this long and protracted Session, scarcely an evening has passed without some Question or other and justly pressing, particular points which they are in the habit of bringing forward. I have no such points to press on the attention of Her Majesty's Government; but I will, in fulfilment of my duty to my country, both at home and abroad, offer a few remarks, and present some large points, which I will try to treat in a very summary, and yet in a broad manner. Now, as regards finance-the general details of the finances-I quite acknowledge, with reference to what fell from the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Gourley), that our expenditure on the North-West Frontier is alarmingly large. I also acknowledge that the deficit in Upper Burmah is very considerable, although I am sure that the expenditure in connection with the occupation of that country will sooner or later fructify a hundredfold for the benefit of the people of India; and, however largely hon. Gentlemen opposite may complain of the Afghan War, there is no doubt that it has left one effect behind it-namely, that it has placed us in a position to effectually defend India against the possible approach of Russia-it has placed us in the possession of that great object to an extent which we never before enjoyed. I also acknowledge that the increase of the just and necessary expenditure on pub- | parations for war against Russia; but, lic works is very considerable, especially with regard to matters of this kind, it when we remember that it adds greatly must be remembered that India is not to what we know as the loss by exchange. the only country which has to incur But, admitting all these things to the such expenditure, and is obliged to full, I venture to assure this House and face such deficits. Why, Sir, this counthe country that the finances on the try-England-has been in deficit for whole are satisfactory; and that assur- similar purposes, as we well know, who ance I make with some confidence, inas- have served on the Public Accounts much as 19 laborious years have slipped Committee and audited the expendiby since I first had to do with the ture under the Vote of Credit. If, finances of India. You must not look then, the Indian finances are satisfactory at the finances of this year or that year; as regards the equilibrium between inyou most look at the finances of the come and expenditure, I submit that the country as extending over a series of taxation is light. In the interesting years, and I am sure that on such a re- Memorandum circulated by the Under trospect it will be found that a surplus Secretary for India, not the least inrather than a deficit has been the rule, teresting point in the many interesting and, indeed, that a deficit has been the points which it contains is the significant exception. There was a time, at the table which shows how light the burden beginning of this period of 19 or 20 of taxation is upon the shoulders of the years, when the finances of India were people of India. I know it is said by under a cloud for two particular rea- hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway sons-one, that we were mixing up opposite that though the taxation may capital with our Revenue expenditure be light, the shoulders of the people that is to say, we were charging against are weak to bear it on account of ordinary Revenue expenditure that the poverty. But are the people poor? Government of any other country would Poverty and wealth surely are relative have charged to capital; and, in the second terms. If their income is small, their place, we have had to build palatial bar- wants are small and their requirements racks for our European troops out of are moderate; and if the doctrine be Revenue. We have now made a proper accepted that he who can live just discrimination in the Accounts between within his income is really rich, and he ordinary and extraordinary expendi- who lives beyond it is really poor, then the ture. Well, Sir, these two main dif- Indian people are better off than most of ficulties having passed away, taking the populations of Europe. After all, it one year with another, a surplus has is no use to argue as to what is wealth been the rule and a deficit has been the and what is poverty. Let me point out exception; and every deficit which has to the Committee what the position of occurred-even the deficit which was the people of India really is. Their nummentioned to-day as belonging to the bers are increasing; their cultivated area year before last-every deficit has been is expanding; their wages are rising, and satisfactorily accounted for. I entreat their trade is growing; they are exportthe House to remember that we have ing masses of edible produce-cereals done two things out of Revenue which and the like, as our British farmers know were very difficult to do-namely, we have to their cost-and they are also secreting defrayed a vast sum—a sum amounting vast quantities of precious metals. Well, to between £15,000,000 and £20,000,000 Sir, I ask this Committee to judge for sterling-out of Revenue for the relief themselves whether the country which of famine, and by these means we saved has done all these things can be said to millions of our fellow-subjects from be poor? With regard to the Debt, I death by starvation. India has also con- think the Committee will have listened tributed very largely to the cost of the with the greatest interest to the statelast Afghan War. On the whole, there- ment made by the Under Secretary for fore, I repeat that the finances of India India to the effect that this Debt is are very satisfactory, even down to the incurred now not for war and undeficit mentioned to-day. After all, profitable expenditure of that kind, but what is that deficit? It is really owing in beneficent expenditure which will to what is called the war scare of Russia bear fruit a hundred-fold. After all, if —that is, the necessity of making pre- credit is the test, it has been shown by the Under Secretary this evening that | between two opinions. At one time we we now stand in India third best in say that no more guarantees should be the world in respect of credit-better by given, and we will trust altogether to far than any country on the Continent of Europe. When I was Finance Minister, India stood second best; but, since then, Australia has shot ahead. Vast public expenditure in India is now divided into two portions-namely, that upon canals and that upon railways; and the only item in the interesting Memorandum of the Secretary of State which I am somewhat inclined to quarrel with is that with regard to the canals, and the result of the irrigation operations, especially in the South of India, is hardly set forth in the Paper. That statement, I would remind the Committee, shows only the main, or grand, irrigation works. There are a great number of irrigation works in all parts of India, especially in the South, which are not shown in that statement. Why, Sir, there are now, I should say, not less than 13,000 miles of canals, great and small, including main branches and distributors, affect ing an area of 7,000,000 acres, and representing an expenditure of not less than £25,000,000 sterling. The total represents the greatest work of the kind ever seen in any age or in any country of the world. The next item of outlay is that on railways. Now, of all questions affecting the immediate future of India, the question of questions is that of the railways. Railways have changed the whole face of the country in India. They have modified not only the material, but also the social condition of the country. They have made the country a new country for European habitation. Well, Sir, the question of questions, Isay, for the future is to know how to extend these railways. After all, what are the 15,000 miles which we see mentioned in the present Memorandum-what, I say, are 15,000 miles in a country of 1,500,000 square miles ? Why, not 15,000 miles, but 150,000 miles, are required before we can say that India is in a satisfactory condition in this matter. The question is, how is this to be done? At present we are constructing railways either by immediate State operations, or by what is known as the guarantee system. This is open to great objection, inasmuch as it increases the heavy item of the loss on exchange. At present we are halting private enterprise. That continues only always consumed in the country, and the same quantity is now consumed, and the extra amount that is produced is exported from India and comes to Liverpool and other ports of England; and that quantity represents so much added to the area under wheat cultivation in India. I have carefully considered this matter with the best experts; and their opinion, added to my own experience and belief, is that, on the whole, as the soundest conclusion, the amount of wheat imported to England from India represents a corresponding addition to the area under wheat cultivation. Well, the question then arises, how far this increase of the wheat area is to go on? It must be understood that we are not to expect a vast or sudden increase. Whole regions in India are not going suddenly under wheat as they do in Canada and America, and other places we are acquainted with. Nothing of that kind is to be expected. It is also to be remembered that the greater portion of the arable area of India is not suited for wheat, and that the masses of the people of India do not live upon that variety of the cereal species. There is no prospect, no likelihood of any leaps and bounds in that respect, and if there is to be an addition to the wheat growing area it must be a gradual one. Then this question arises-is this area now increasing? Well, it has been increasing gradually for several years past; but at this moment, according to my opinion, this increase is arrested. It may spring forward again. No one can exactly say, as that depends upon what goes on in America. We hear, however, that the American importations are not likely to be so great as they were, and that might give an additional stimulus to the wheat importation from India; and, after all, if there is to be a great exportation of wheat from India prices in India must rise. That we may be sure of. Prices have been wonderful of late-lower, I should think, than they have ever been within the memory of living man. The rate of exchange may rise again, and that, of course, would affect the cost of the production of wheat in India, or, rather, the cost of exporting wheat from India; so that it is very possible-even, indeed, probable that should there be any falling off in the arrivals of wheat from North America, there may be some increase in the exportation from India. As to any improvement being likely to arise in the condition of exchange in India, I fear there is not much chance for the appreciation of silver, particularly now that there is little to be hoped from the gold discoveries in India. But still we have this fact to bear in mind at this moment-the exchange is steady, with a slight tendency to rise. Well, I need say nothing more, I think, regarding the question of finance. I have not said much on that question, probably not as much as I ought; and probably I have not said as much as the occasion requires with regard to the Army Expenditure. But before I pass on to the general topics regarding the Natives I should like to say one word more regarding our finances, which is this-that while, on the one hand, the Army Expenditure and the Army arrangements throughout India are satisfactory, the naval arrangements are blamed out there as much as they are in any part of the Empire. It is a common cause of anxiety and complaint that our great coaling stations in the East are left comparatively undefended, and that the number of ships of war in Indian waters is dangerously small. No doubt, the expenditure is small too; but those who value the safety of India will feel that an additional burden, in respect to Naval Expenditure, should be borne in consideration of the value of naval defence to the safety of the country. I would now say a few words on a subject as to which much reproach has been levelled lately against the Indian Administration. It is said that in order to stimulate the Excise Revenue upon drugs and spirits we are driving the people into intemperance. Sir, I should, as a responsible person, like to give a most emphatic denial, on the part of the Administration of India, to any statement of that kind, and to express my utter disbelief as to any such result being produced, or in there being any tendency towards such a result. No doubt, it becomes very important to make changes in our arrangements regarding the administration of the Excise. It becomes, sometimes, difficult to maintain a system of excessive centralization in that respect. It is necessary to extend the system to what is called "out spirits "-that is to say, stills which radiate from centres; but all this is done for the purpose of securing the the sum exponded upon education in Revenue-for the purpose of insisting India? If I heard the figures correctly upon every consumer paying the tax- I think he was considerably under the that, and nothing else; and also for the mark. At any rate, might I be allowed purpose of stopping smuggling. If it to point out to the Committee that this should happen that, owing to these most necessary and beneficent expendiarrangements, there should for a ture has greatly increased within the moment be a tendency towards an last two years? It has risen from increase of intemperance, then this £1,500,000 sterling in 1878 to £2,500,000 House and the country may depend sterling in 1885. That is a very conupon it that the Government of India siderable increase, especially when we will take steps immediately to stop it, remember that in India, as in England, for nothing can be further from their that sum does not represent the total minds or their thoughts than the idea expenditure upon education. I have not of encouraging intemperance; and I am the figures before me at the present mosure, in justice to the Natives, that ment; but I am sure that if I could there are very few people on earth who present to the Committee the total of are less addicted to intemperance than what is paid in India from private sources they are. As to land, it will not sur- of all kinds-that is, private munifi prise the Committee to hear that all cence-and also the system of local rates those vexed questions as to which we upon local property, which is regulated in hear so much at home-the registration exactly the same way, and levied as it is of title, cheap transfer, administration from the ratepayers in the Metropolitan and codification, have all been settled long areas-I say that if all these things were ago by the Government of India. The taken together, the expenditure would be land tenure registers are worked on the nearly double of the large figure cheapest, most deep-reaching, and far- which I have quoted. And, Sir, conextending system. As regards the ad- sidering that in the last generation ministration of justice, the expenditure there was no education at all worthy of on that has increased, of course owing to the name in India fair progress has the great increase in the salaries of the been made. They have now a very Native Judges and other Native officials respectable Educational Department, of all ranks; and, as I said, with re- several Universities, many Colleges, gard to the question bearing on land, high schools by hundreds, and village the laws bearing upon contract and schools by thousands, and there are be civil jurisprudence have been conso- tween 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 children lidated and codified, and questions of being educated. That is a good result; scientific legislation which are still un- but I admit that we have still, relatively settled in England have been settled in speaking, a small number of children at India with the help of the most eminent school. So far I agree heartily with jurists from England herself. I do not the hon. Member for Sunderland. What deny that, despite all these improve- are 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 children atments, there is one evil which has eaten, tending school out of a population of like a canker, into the heart of the 200,000,000 in British territories, exrural population in India-namely, pea- clusive of Native States? Why, Sir, sant indebtedness. We hear a great there are more millions of children deal here about the money lenders, or at school in Great Britain than there "gombeen" men, from hon. Gentlemen are in the whole of India; and yet below the Gangway opposite, especially the population of British India is, perin regard to Ireland. Well, Sir, I can haps, six times as large as that of Great assure hon. Gentlemen that the Celtic Britain. If we had the same number of variety of that interesting species in children at school in India in proportion the United Kingdom is quite a mild to the population as we have in Great specimen compared with his Indian Britain, there ought to be 18,000,000 brother. And now I would say or 19,000,000 under education there. word with regard to education-a sub- Well, I must point out to the hon. ject which has been so much dwelt upon Member for Sunderland that if he conby the hon. Gentleman opposite the siders the sum spent upon education in Member for Sunderland (Mr. Gourley). India too small, it is quite as much as is Did I hear him rightly with regard to wanted at this moment for the population a |