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which requires earnest attention on the being propounded to the Members of part of the Government. Passing to Her Majesty's Government with regard another point, I can see no reason why to our Empire in the East. And they the seat of Government in India should may further derive hope from the fact bo removed every year from Calcutta to that this Parliament, and the ParliaSimla. It seems to me absurd that the ment immediately preceding it, being Governor General of India, with all his the two Parliaments elected under a staff and appurtenances, should remove very extended franchise, have contained onco a-year to the Hills at great expense a far larger proportion than any which to the people and with great incon preceded them of men practically convenience to the commercial world. This versant with the affairs of the East; and is a practice which I trust Her Majesty's I am convinced that if we in any way Government will consider, with the view understand the feeling of our constiof putting a stop to an unwarrantable tuents, there is no Member of this charge thrown upon the country by the House who cannot assure the people of highly-paid servants which we have in India that the mass of the electors of India. Then, Sir, I think that the this country have an abiding interest in salary of the Governor General of India, the welfare of their fellow-subjects in the which amounts to £25,000 a-year, and East. Further, most of us who are well the salaries of the other highly-paid acquainted with those regions can bear officials of the Government, ought to be personal testimony to the fact that there reduced. An hon. Friend of mine has is not a city or any great centre of inrecommended that a Standing Committee telligence in the United Kingdom to of this House should be constituted to which they are not invited to give an deal with all questions relating to the exposition and explanation with regard Government Revenues and other matters to the position of affairs in India. I relating to India, and I am of opinion know, of course, that many hon. Memthat this would be a wise course for Her bers will take this occasion for pressing, Majesty's Government to adopt. It is and justly pressing, particular points quite true that there is the India which they are in the habit of bringing Council; but we in this House have not forward. I have no such points to press the control over the proceedings of that on the attention of Her Majesty's GoCouncil which we have a right to exer-vernment; but I will, in fulfilment of cise with regard to the affairs of India. my duty to my country, both at home I do not see the necessity for this old and abroad, offer a few remarks, form of government continuing to exist; and present some large points, which and for my part, as I have said, I think I will try to treat in a very summary, it would be wise on the part of Her and yet in a broad manner. Now, as Majesty's Government to set up a regards finance-the general details of Standing Committee of the House of the finances-I quite acknowledge, with Commous in its stead.

reference to what fell from the hon. ŞIR RICHARD TEMPLE (Worces- Member for Sunderland (Mr. Gourley), ter, Evesham): I think I may join with that our expenditure on the North-West hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the Frontier is alarmingly large. I also House in offering congratulations to the acknowledge that the deficit in Upper Under Secretary of State for India in Burmah is very considerable, although I respect of the very able statement which am sure that the expenditure in connecho has made to us this evening, and tion with the occupation of that country also in respect of the interesting Memowili sooner or later fructify a hundredrandum which he has circulated before- fold for the benefit of the people of hand for our information. Sir, it may India; and, however largely hon. Genbe thought that the people of India will tlemen opposite may complain of the be discouraged when they hear of this Afghan War, there is no doubt that it Indian Budget being brought before the has left one eif-ct behind it-namely, House with diminished nuinbers, and at that it has placed us in a position to effecthe close of the Session ; but I believe tually defend India against the possible they can derive some consolation from approach of Russia-it has placed us in the fact that, during this long and pro- the possession of that great object to an tracted Session, scarcely an evening has extent which we never before enjoyed. I passed without some Question or other also acknowledge that the increase of the just and necessary expenditure on pub-parations for war against Russia ; but, lie works is very considerable, especially with regard to matters of this kind, it when we remember that it adds greatly must be remembered that India is not to what we know as the loss by exchange. the only country which has to incur But, admitting all these things to the such expenditure, and is obliged to full

, I venture to assure this House and face such deficits. Why, Sir, this ooun. the country that the finances on the try-England-has been in deficit for whole are satisfactory; and that assur- similar purposes, as we well know, who ance I make with some confidence, inas. have served on the Public Accounts much as 19 laborious years have slipped Committee and audited the expendiby since I first had to do with the ture under the Voto of Credit. If, fivances of India. You must not look then, the Indian finances are satisfactory at the finances of this year or that year; as regards the equilibrium between inyou most look at the finances of the come and expenditure, I submit that the country as extending over a series of taxation is light. In the interesting years, and I am sure that on such a re- Memorandum circulated by the Under trospect it will be found that a surplus Secretary for India, not the least inrather than a deficit has been the rule, teresting point in the many interesting and, indeed, that a deficit has been the points which it contains is the significant exception. There was a time, at the table which shows how light the burden beginning of this period of 19 or 20 of taxation is upon the shoulders of the years, when the finances of India were people of India. I know it is said by under a cloud for two particular rea- hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway sons-ope, that we were mixing up opposite that though the taxation may capital with our Revenue expenditure - be light, the shoulders of the people that is to say, we were charging against are weak to bear it on account of ordinary Revenue expenditure that the poverty. But are the people poor? Government of any other country would Poverty and wealth surely are relative bovecharged to capital; and, in the second terms. If their income is small, their place, we have had to build palatial bar- wants are small and their requirements racks for our European troops out of are moderate ; and if the doctrine be Revenue. We have now made a proper accepted that he who can live just discrimination in the Accounts between within his income is really rich, and ho ordinary and extraordinary expendi- who lives beyond it is really poor, then the ture. Well, Sir, these two main dif. Indian people are better off than most of ficulties having passed away, taking the populations of Europe. After all, it one year with another, a surplus has is no use to argue as to what is wealth been the rule and a deficit has been the and what is poverty. Let me point out exception; and every deficit which has to the Committee what the position of occurred-even the deficit which was the people of India really is. Their nummentioned to-day as belonging to the bers are increasing; their cultivated area year before last-ovory deficit has been is expanding; their wages are rising, and satisfactorily accounted for. I entreat their trade is growing; they are exportthe House to remember that we have ing masses of edible produce-cereals done two things out of Revenue which and the like, as our British farmers know were very difficult to do-namely, we have to their cost—and they are also secreting defrayed a vast sum—a sum amounting vast quantities of precious metals. Well, to between £15,000,000 and £20,000,000 Sir, I ask this Committee to judge for sterling-out of Revenue for the relief themselves whether the country which of famine, and by these means we saved has done all these things can be said to millions of our fellow-subjects from be poor? With regard to the Debt, I death by starvation. India has also con- think the Committee will have listened tributed very largely to the cost of the with the greatest interest to the statelast Afghan War. On the wbole, there- ment made by the Under Secretary for fore, I repeat that the finances of India India to the effect that this Debt is are very satisfactory, even down to the incurred now not for war and undeficit mentioned to-day. After all, profitable expenditure of that kind, but what is that deficit? It is really owing in beneficent expenditure which will to what is called the war scare of Russia bear fruit a hundred-fold. After all, if -that is, the necessity of making pre-credit is the test, it has been shown by

the Under Secretary this evening that I between two opinione. At one time we we now stand in India third best in say that no more guarantees should be the world in respect of credit-better by given, and we will trust altogether to far than any country on the Continent private enterprise. That continues only of Europe. When I was Finance for a time, and then we revert to the Minister, India stood second best; but, old system. It is obvious that so long since then, Australia has shot ahead. as people can get guarantees, either for Vast public expenditure in India is a long time or a short time, or for ever, now divided into two portions-namely, they will not put their money into Indian that upon canals and that upon rail. railways without a guarantee. If we ways; and the only item in the in. are to give a proper and a fair chance to teresting Memorandum of the Secretary private enterprise, we must put our foot of State which I am somewhat inclined down and say that, for the present, we to quarrel with is that with regard to the will give no more guarantees and undercanals, and the result of the irrigation take no more State railways; and if

, operations, especially in the South of after having given a complete trial to India, is hardly set forth in the Paper. the system, it is discovered that private That statement, I would remind the enterprise is not sufficient, then I sup. Committee, shows only the main, or pose ultimately we shall have to revert grand, irrigation works. There are to the old system, because it is certain a great number of irrigation works that if we do our duty to India we in all parts of India, especially in the must cover it with a network of railSouth, which are not shown in that ways. Times have, perhaps, not been statement. Why, Sir, there are now, I favourable to these operations in the should say, not less than 13,000 miles Money Market; but there have been of canals, great and small, including several instances of singular success in main branches and distributors, affect. respect to railways constructed by ing an area of 7,000,000 acres, and private enterprise in India. The Under representing an expenditure of not less Secretary for India this evening menthan £25,000,000 sterling. The total tioned one, the Bengal and North Westrepresents the greatest work of the kind ern Railway, and there is another to ever seen in any age or in any country the West of Calcutta which is doing reof the world. The next item of markably well in respect of Native outlay is that on railways. Now, of traffic, and especially of pilgrim traffic. all questions affecting the immediate Therefore, I think if we try our new future of India, the question of ques- plan by letting those persons who tions is that of the railways. Railways advance monoy on these undertakings have changed the whole face of the see that are not going to give country in India. They have modified direct help, except by grants of land, not only the material, but also the social there will be a chance of India being condition of the country. They have materially benefited by private enmade the country a new country for terprise being enlisted in this most European habitation. Well, Sir, the important work. There is a chance of question of questions, Isay, for the future India being materially benefited also by is to know how to extend these railways. a subject connected with this-namely, After all, what are the 15,000 miles the development of the wheat trade. which we see mentioned in the present There is no question, perhaps, of more Memorandum-what, I say, are 15,000 immediate interest to agriculture, or miles in a country of 1,500,000 square of more importance, than this quesmiles ? Why, not 15,000 miles, but tion of the production of Indian 150,000 miles, are required before we wheat. No doubt, it is to these can say that India is in a satisfactory railways that England owes that which condition in this matter. The question is called by many the blessing of cheap is, how is this to be done ? At present wheat from India. Cheap wheat from we are constructing railways either by India may be a blessing to the majority, immediate State operations, or by what although it may be something else to is known as the guarantee system. This some of us in the agricultural districts. is open to great objection, inasmuch as There is no doubt that there has been a it increases the heavy item of the loss great increase of wheat cultivation in on exchange. At present we are halting India. The old supply of wheat was



always consumed in the country, and the exportation from India. As to any the same quantity is now consumed, and improvement being likely to arise in the the extra amount that is produced is condition of exchange in India, I fear esported from India and comes to Liver. there is not much chance for the apprepool and other ports of England; and ciation of silver, particularly now that that quantity represents so much added there is little to be hoped from the to the area under wheat cultivation in gold discoveries in India. But still India. I have carefully considered this we have this fact to bear in mind matter with the best experts; and their at this moment—the exchange is steady, opinion, added to my own experience and with a slight tendency to rise. Well, I belief, is that, on the whole, as the need say nothing more, I think, regardsoundest conclusion, the amount of wheating the question of finance. I have not imported to England from India repre- said much on that question, probably sents a corresponding addition to the not as much as I ought; and probably area under wheat cultivation. Well, I have not said as much as the occasion

the question then arises, how far this requires with regard to the Army Ex2 increase of the wheat area is to go on? penditure. But before I pass on to the

It must be understood that we are not general topics regarding the Natives I se to expect a vast or sudden increase. should like to say one word more regard.

Whole regions in India are not going ing our finances, which is this that suddenly under wheat as they do in while, on the one hand, the Army Ex

Canada and America, and other places penditure and the Army arrangements iz we are acquainted with. Nothing of throughout India are satisfactory, the

that kind is to be expected. It is also naval arrangements are blamed out there be to be remembered that the greater por- as much as they are in any part of the 3. tion of the arable area of India is not Empire. It is a

cause of suited for wheat, and that the masses anxiety and complaint that our great of the people of India do not live coaling stations in the East are left

upon that variety of the cereal species. comparatively undefended, and that Tia There is no prospect, no likelihood the number of ships of war in Indian 1: of any leaps and bounds in that respect, waters is dangerously small. No doubt,

and if there is to be an addition to the the expenditure is small too; but those wheat growing area it must be a gradual who value the safety of India will feel one. Then this question arises—is this that an additional burden, in respect to area now increasing? Well, it has been Naval Expenditure, should be borne in increasing gradually for several years consideration of the value of naval past; but at this moment, according to defence to the safety of the country. I my opinion, this increase is arrested. It would now say a few words on a subject may spring forward again. No one can as to which much reproach has been exactly say, as that depends upon what levelled lately against the Indian Adgoes on in America. We hear, however, ministration. It is said that in order that the American importations are not to stimulate the Excise Revenue upon likely to be so great as they were, and drugs and spirits we are driving the that might give an additional stimulus people into intemperance. Sir, I should, to the wheat importation from India; as a responsible person, like to give a most and, after all, if there is to be a great emphatic denial, on the part of the Adexportation of wheat from India prices ministration of India, to any statement in India must rise. That we may be of that kind, and to express my utter sure of. Prices have been wonderful of disbelief as to any such result being late-lower, I should think, than they produced, or in there being any tendency bave ever been within the memory of towards such a result. "No doubt, it

The rate of exchange may becomes very important to make changes rise again, and that, of course, would in our arrangements regarding the affect the cost of the production of administration of the Excise. It bewheat in India, or, rather, the cost of comes, sometimes, difficult to maintain a exporting wheat from India'; so that it is system of excessive centralization in very possible-even, indeed, probable that respect. It is necessary to extend that should there be any falling off in the system to what is called “out the arrivals of wheat from North spirits" —that is to say, stills which America, there may be some increase in radiate from centres; but all this is

living man.


done for the purpose of securing the the sum exponded upon education in Revenue--for the purpose of insisting India ? If I heard the figures correctly upon every consumer paying the tax- I think he was considerably under the that, and nothing else; and also for the mark. At any rate, might I be allowed purpose of stopping smuggling. If it to point out to the Committee that this should happen that, owing to these most necessary and beneficent expendiarrangements, there should for a ture has greatly increased within the moment be a tendency towards an last two years ? It has risen from increase of intemperance, then this £1,500,000 sterling in 1878 to £2,500,000 House and the country may depend sterling in 1885. That is a very con. upon it that the Government of India siderable increase, especially when we will take steps immediately to stop it, remember that in India, as in England, for nothing can be further from their that sum does not represent the total minds or their thoughts than the idea expenditure upon education. I have not of encouraging intemperance; and I am the figures before me at the present mosure, in justice to the Natives, that mont; but I am sure that if I could there are very few people on earth who present to the Committee the total of are less addicted to intemperance than what is paid in India from private sources they are. As to land, it will not sur- of all kinds--that is, private munisi. prise the Committee to hear that all cence-and also the system of local rates those vexed questions as to which we upon local property, which is regulated in hear so much at home-the registration exactly the same way, and levied as it is of title, cheap transfer, administration from the ratepayers in the Metropolitan and codification, have all been settled long areas—I say that if all these things were ago by the Government of India. The taken together, the expenditure would be land tenure registers are worked on the nearly double of the large figure cheapest, most deep-reaching, and far- which I have quoted. And, Sir, conextending system. As regards the ad-sidering that in the last generation ministration of justice, the expenditure there was no education at all worthy of on that has increased, of course owing to the name in India fair progress the great increase in the salaries of the been made. They have now a very Native Judges and other Native officials respectable Educational Department, of all ranks; and, as I said, with re- several Universities, many Colleges, gard to the question bearing on land, high schools by hundreds, and village the laws bearing upon contract and schools by thousands, and there are becivil jurisprudence have been conso- tween 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 children lidated and codified, and questions of being educated. That is a good result; scientific legislation which are still un- but I admit that we have still, relatively settled in England have been settled in speaking, a small number of children at India with the help of the most eminent school. So far I agree heartily with jurists from England herself. I do not the hon. Member for Sunderland. What deny that, despite all these improve are 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 children atments, there is one evil which has eaten, tending school out of a population of like a canker, into the heart of the 200,000,000 in British territories, exrural population in India-namely, pea- clusive of Native States? Why, Sir, sant indebtedness. We hear a great there are more millions of children deal here about the money lenders, or at school in Great Britain than there

gombeen" men, from hon. Gentlemen are in the whole of India ; and yet below the Gangway opposite, especially the population of British India is, perin regard to Ireland." Well, Sir, I can haps, six times as large as that of Great assure hon. Gentlemen that the Celtic Britain. If we had the same number of variety of that interesting species in children at school in India in proportion the United Kingdom is quite a mild to the population as we have in Great specimen compared with bis Indian Britain, there ought to be 18,000,000 brother. And now I would say or 19,000,000 under education there. word with regard to education—a sub- Well, I must point out to the hon. ject which has been so much dwelt upon Member for Sunderland that if he conby the hon. Gentleman opposite the siders the sum spent upon education in Member for Sunderland (Mr. Gourley). India too small, it is quite as much as is Did I hear him rightly with regard to wanted at this momont for the population

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