are such items as the large deficit of the
Transvaal for 1901-2, the former debt of
the South African Republic, compensation
to the Transvaal and the Orange River
Colony, to loyalists in Cape Colony
and Natal. Those items account for
£16,000,000. Then there is £3,000,000
advanced by way of loan for repatriation
and compensation in the Transvaal and
the Orange River Colony. All these
items will not be reproductive. There
are other items which will be reproductive,
and as to those I am not quite clear.
£14,000,000 is put down for the acquisi-
tion of existing railroads. Does that in-
clude the Netherlands Railway? A few
years ago the revenue from the railways
was a very small sum. In the time
of Mr. Kruger it amounted to only
£300,000 or £400,000 a year, but a much
larger sum is now estimated to be re-
ceived. It is estimated that when the
railroads are acquired a revenue of some-
thing like £2,500,000 will be derived. I
have seen it placed even so high as
£4,000,000, which I suppose would in-
clude the revenue from the Netherlands
Railway. Perhaps the noble Earl will
explain whether this £14,000,000 for the
acquisition of
of railways includes the
Netherlands Railway. Next we come to
£5,000,000 for new railways. In view of
the enormous size of the country,
£5,000,000 will go a very small way in
extending the railways in the two colonies.
I do not for a moment say that railways
are not necessary for the development of
the country. On the contrary, I should
think that the construction of railways is
one of the surest methods of improving
the commerce and trade of the areas in
question, but £5,000,000 is a very small
sum for the work.

Then there is the important question of

land settlement. On more than one occa

lusive hopes when we encourage them to go out.

Another matter of great importance on which we should like further information is the question of irrigation. No doubt, in of water is one of the reasons why much of a country like South Africa, the scarcity the rich territory there is not cultivated, and a judicious system of irrigation may be a very desirable thing. But we may easily be led into a gigantic expenditure in this direction. I do not know whether that is included in the £3,000,000, or whether that sum refers to other public works. The provision is rather vague on that

point.

As far as I can see, all these are matters of considerable interest and importance, not only to this country which is guaranteeing such large sums of money, but also to the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony, who also are responsible for this money. Had it been an earlier period of the session I should have endeavoured to go farther into the matter, but I did not like to let the Bill pass without a word, because I think your Lordships' House ought to feel that it has a responsibility with regard to these great matters of policy in different parts of the Empire, and that it ought not to give up its opportunities of criticising the proposals made, or of obtaining information in regard thereto. It was for that reason I have ventured to make these few remarks, and I hope some member of the Government will give an explanation on the points I have raised.

*THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (The Earl of Ox SLOW): This Bill deals almost entirely with financial questions, and I confess I was not prepared for the noble Earl sion we have had conversation or discus-raising a lengthened discussion upon it. sion in this House on that subject. It is an extremely important matter. I have sometimes thought that the statements which have been made here in the direction of encouraging Scotch or English farmers to go out and settle in South Africa hardly constituted wise or safe advice. I have seen and heard many accounts from persons who have been out there, and I doubt extremely whether the farmers of this country would find it a profitable undertaking to settle in the Transvaal. I incline to the view that we are holding out de

Earl Spencer.

*EARL SPENCER: I do not know whether I owe the noble Earl an apology for not giving him notice of my intention to speak on the subject, but I thought it was rather a matter of course that somebody would desire to speak on so important a matter.

*THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I was not suggesting that the noble Earl should apologise to the Government; I was really going to apologise to the noble

Earl for the meagreness of the informa | Earl then asked whether any provision has tion which I shall be able to give him, at been made for irrigation? Some provision such short notice, in reply to the Ques- is made for irrigation under the heading tions he has asked. I was not in the "Other public works," but I entirely agree House when the noble Earl commenced his with what I understood the noble Earl to remarks, but I understand that he was say -viz., that in all probability a condoubtful as to whether the revenues of siderable sum of money might profitably the Transvaal would be altogether suffi- be spent in the development of irrigation cient for the considerable sum of money in the Transvaal and the Orange River to be guaranteed by the Imperial Govern- Colony. We must, however, proceed by ment. I think the noble Earl knows degrees, and Lord Milner thought, and Lord Milner pretty well; he knows Lord the Government agreed, that it would be Milner's financial capacity, and he must desirable to see what would be the result be aware that in these respects Lord of irrigation on a somewhat small scale, Milner is not a very sanguine man. We before the finances of the Transvaal were had considerable experience of Lord asked to bear any heavy charge for an exMilner's financial ability in the discharge tensive system of irrigation in the new of somewhat similar duties in Egypt, and colonies. But under any circumstances, I when I say that Lord Milner has not a can assure your Lordships, those who shadow of doubt as to the superabund- have gone very carefully into these quesant revenue of the Transvaal and the tions, putting great faith in Lord Milner's Orange River Colony over any liability capacity to estimate expenditure and which may be imposed by these loans, I revenue, have satisfied themselves that the think the noble Earl will be satisfied on liability this country is asked to accept that point. Lord Milner is perfectly under the Bill is not a liability that satisfied that the Transvaal will be more it will ever be likely to be called upon than able to bear this burden, and that it to discharge. will be a comparatively light one.

Then the noble Earl asked whether the loan to be raised would be sufficient to cover the cost of the Netherlands Railway. That matter has been the subject of negotiation between His Majesty's Government and the representatives of the bond-holders and shareholders in different countries in Europe. His Majesty's Government had never accepted any liability whatever for compensation for taking possession of that railway, but ex gratia they have consented to pay off the Debentures and to pay a certain sum of money per share to those who bond fide held shares in the company before war was declared, and the money necessary for that purpose is included in the £14,000,000 under head (2) "Acquisition of existing railways in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony."

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Can the noble Earl tell us the amount that will be paid for that railway ?

*THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I am not sure that it is yet settled. A definite proposal has been made to the shareholders, but I am not in a position to say whether they have consented to accept it. But whether they have consented or not, they will not get any more. The noble

House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended), Bill read 3, and passed.

MILITARY WORKS BILL.

House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL. House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended), Bill read 3", and passed.

BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) BILL. House in Committee (according to order).

[The Earl of MORLEY in the Chair.]

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said he ought, perhaps, to explain why so many Amendments appeared on the Paper, although he had stated yesterday this was an agreed Bill. The matter had

Amendment moved

'In cases

been the subject of prolonged and in- [tioned in the section, whereas the Amendˇ tricate negotiations between officials in ment empowered the town council to the Scotch Office and the officials and oblige the owners to make and keep them representatives of the Royal Burghs, in repair. He begged to moved. other Government Departments, and certain private interests. The Bill went through Grand Committee in the House of Commons, and was reported therefrom on 15th July. All the Amendments on the Paper were either drafting Amendments or matters of agreement, and which would have been inserted in the House of Commons had it been possible to get the Bill on. It was not then a Government Bill, but it had since gone through the process known as starring"; that was, being an agreed Bill, it had been taken up by the Government in order that much valuable time should not be lost. Before it became a Government measure, however, one Member was able to stop all further progress with it, and from 15th July to 7th August nothing was done, simply because objection was taken to the Bill coming on. But during all that time not the slightest opposition had developed to the Bill itself. He thought these facts were very eloquent of the great difficulty of getting even agreed Bills through Parliament. He would say nothing farther at this point, but would explain any Amendments of substance as they arose.

"In page 7, line 25, after Sub-section 2, to insert as a new sub-section the words carriages across a footway maintainable by the town council into the premises of any abutting owner, the town council may require the formation and maintenance by such owner of a may require such owner to maintain the crossing of the description above specified, or portion of the footway used by such carriages to their satisfaction.""(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

where it is desired to take

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed to.
Clause 4.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 8 agreed to.
Clause 9.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 16 agreed to.
Clause 17.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said the next Amendment replaced a provision more stringent in its nature which was struck out in Committee. The clause previously gave the town council power to prohibit the carriage-ways menLord Balfour of Burleigh.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 18 and 19 agreed to.

Clause 20.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 21 to 36, agreed to.

Clause 37.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.
Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 38 and 39 agreed to.
Clause 40.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said the next Amendment was for the purpose of exempting low advertisements, not exceeding twelve feet in height, from the stringent regulations imposed on advertisements of greater height.

Amendment moved

"In page 14, line 9, to leave out from the word 'externally' to the word 'the' in line 11.”—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 41 to 43 agreed to.