An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision by the Member. HOUSE OF LORDS. pointing the Committee. Minutes of Wednesday, 12th August, 1903. PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS. Re Hastings Harbour Bill [H.L.]. turned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to. Strabane, Raphoe, and Convoy Railway Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to. Ulster and Connaught Light Railways Bill. Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment agreed to. Auchterarder Town Council Order Confirmation Bill. Read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2 (The Lord Balfour); and reported from the Committee; and to be read 3a to-morrow. (No. 219.) RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. BOARD OF EDUCATION. I. Report, for the year 1902, on the museums, colleges, and institutions under the administration of the Board of Education. II. General Reports on higher education, with Appendices, for the year 1902. III. Lists of secondary schools, science and art schools and classes, and evening schools under the administration of the Board, 1902-1903. IV. Grants to School Boards-Grants paid to School Boards under Section 97 Elementary Education Act, 1870; School Board accounts; List of loans, 1902-1903. Butter Regulations: Final Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the Board of Agriculture and the Department of Agriculture and other Industries and Technical Instruction for Ireland, to inquire and report upon the desirability of regulations under Section 4 of the Sale of Foods and Drugs Act, 1899, for butter; with the Minute apVOL. CXXVII. [FOURTH SERIES.] evidence, with a digest of the evidence, appendices and index. CUSTOMS. Forty-seventh Report of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Customs (for the year ended 31st March, 1903). COLONIES (ANNUAL). No. 393. Hong-Kong (Report for 1902). Presented by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table. PACIFIC CABLE ACT, 1901 (ACCOUNT 1902-1903). Account showing the money issued from the Consolidated Fund under the provisions of the Pacific Cable Act, 1901 (1 Edw. 7, c. 31), and the money received, expended, and borrowed, and securities created under the said Act, to the 31st March, 1903. SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE. Account, of the receipts and expendi ture of the Paymaster-General on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature in respect of the funds of Suitors of the Court, in the year ended 28th February, 1903: Also, account of the National Debt Commissioners for the same period in respect of funds held by them on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL. House (pursuant to Order of the 12th of Return respecting-laid before the June last), and to be printed. (No. 214.) Bill.-(The Lord Kenyon.) (No. 215.) Housing of the Working Classes (No. 2) Public Buildings Expenses Bill.-(The Lord Windsor.) (No. 216.) Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.)-The Lord PresiPrisoners' Defence Bill.-(The Lord Chandent, D. Devonshire.) (No. 217.) Poor cellor.) (No. 218.) Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read2a to-morrow. PATENT OFFICE (EXTENSION) BILL. Committed: The Committee to meet forthwith. 2 L MOTOR-CARS BILL [H.L.]. THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): I rise for the purpose of moving that the Amendments made by the House of Commons in regard to this Bill be considered, and next I shall move that they be agreed to. Having regard to the interest which was taken by many Members of this House when the Bill was before your Lordships, I think it would perhaps be convenient that I should briefly state the changes which have been made-or at any rate the main changes--by the House of Commons. As they appear on the Paper, the Amendments seem to bulk very largely, but having watched the progress of the Bill through the House of Commons, and having spent a considerable time in studying the actual Amendments made, I am able to say with confidence that they appear on the Paper much more formidable than they are in fact. I may even go so far as to say that, as the Bill is returned to us, there is only one Amendment of outstanding importance which has been made in the Bill since it left this House a week or two ago, and that Amendment is the insertion of a speed limit of twenty miles an hour in Clause 7. That subject was very fully debated in this House on more than one occasion, and the position I then took up on behalf of the Government, and with which personally I most strongly agreed, was that the imposition of an arbitrary speed limit was a tactical mistake and would not serve the real purpose which its advocates had in view. The real outstanding objection to it-an objection to which I have not seen an answer is that it obviously must tend to obscure the real importance of the provisions in the first clause of the Bill, which provides for the imposition of serious penalties for the offence, in itself equally serious, of driving recklessly, negligently, or to the danger of the public. I may say now, as I said before, that, taken by itself, a speed limit of twenty miles an hour, or, indeed, of any other number of miles an hour, is not of itself of much importance for the protection of the public. The real protection which this Bill gives to the public, as distinguished from the present state of things, is twofold. In the first place, the Bill provides, for the first time, an easy and ready means of identifying those who offend against good conduct, and it also puts upon them, when they are convicted before a proper Court, serious and severe penalties. I am still of the same opinion as I was then. I would have preferred that the Bill should become an Act without any arbitrary speed limit, but I know perfectly well, from the state of feeling in the House of Commons, that to press the Bill through without such a limit would have been practically impossible. I think it may even be said that the strength of feeling on this matter in the House of Commons increased after the discussions which took place in this House. Strong arguments were used to the effect that roads were made for the convenience of the general public, and not for any such high rates of speed at all, and I do not think that anything like sufficient weight was given to the consideration that a motor-car in the hands of a driver who at all knows his business is much more under control than many a horsed carriage which goes along our roads at present. The real cause of the feeling on the subject is this. Beyond all question, there has been repeated over and over again in many parts of the country offences against courtesy, against the unwritten laws of good conduct, and against consideration for the feelings and privileges of other users of the road. That has really been the foundation of the strong feeling which has grown up against this particular description of traffic. I should like, if I may, to turn aside for a moment, and say that I think there is an entirely erroneous impression abroad that these offences are mainly committed by those who use motor-cars for their amusement, and are of the class generally spoken of as gentlemen or gentlefolk. There have undoubtedly been some conspicuous instances in which offences have been committed by persons who, from their social station, might have been expected to know better, and those particular of other cases in which persons of a cases get into the newspapers, while scores different class are concerned, but who are equally guilty, do not get into the newspapers. In this way an entirely errononly gentlemen eous impression has got about that it is or gentlefolk who offend in this matter. A magistrate, who has been a friend of mine for many years, on whose judgment I can rely, and who is a perfectly competent observer and by no means prejudiced either for or against motor traffic, has told me that within the last year he has had to sit on sixty or seventy cases in which offences against the Act were alleged, and he assured me that, having carefully analysed those cases, not more than 10 per cent. or 12 per cent. of the offenders were in a social position which in any way entitled them to the appellation of gentlefolk. On the other hand, I am quite certain that without really good cause, there would not have been all this outcry against this form of traffic. I am sure your Lordships will bear me out when I say that the British public are not jealous of the amusement of others, they are not anxious to put down sport for the mere pleasure of putting it down; they are glad to see others, to whatever social class they belong, enjoying themselves; they are tolerant within very wide bounds of the amusement of others; and when we are told that in regulating the motor traffic as we are doing, we are the enemies of a growing industry, and that we are destroying the potential prosperity of that industry, I say, without fear of contradiction, that the real enemies of the industry are those who have misused the power which this new invention has given them. I know that those who are in favour of the motor industry are hostile to the insertion of this speed limit, but I think I may say that the House of Commons has held the balance very fairly. If it has put in this Amendment which is distasteful to the advocates of the motor industry, the other Amend ments which have been made have almost without exception, been in favour of, or are likely to be satisfactory to, the drivers of motor-cars. I will go very briefly over the points on which Amendments have been made, and if I fail to cover the whole ground, I will gladly give any further explanation that I am able. I have mentioned the Amendment imposing a speed limit of twenty miles an hour. There is also a small Amendment of the provision which enables a police constable to apprehend a person whom he sees committing an offence. That power is now limited to cases in which the individual refuses to give his name or address. A provision has been inserted enabling manufacturers of motorcars and dealers in motor-cars to have a general identification mark which can be used when cars are out on trial and for that purpose only. A slight Amendment has been made in the clause which provides for the identification mark. That clause, as it left this House, laid an absolute obligation on the driver of the car, under all circumstances and in all cases, to be sure that the mark was unobscured. That obligation is now mitigated to the extent that he is only bound to take all steps reasonable and practicable to keep the mark unobscured, and he has to prove that he has done so. The onus of proof lies upon him to prove that he has done all that he could to keep the mark unobscured. I have already referred to the speed limit. In all cases of penalties for offences which consist merely of exceeding the speed limit, the prosecution is safeA person guarded in various ways. cannot be convicted for exceeding the limit of twenty miles an hour upon the evidence of one witness only; two witintended prosecutions must be given to nesses are required, and notice of all the motorist either at the time the offence is committed or within a reasonable period, not exceeding twenty-one days, after. Twenty-one days is the maximum, and having regard to all the circumstances I do not think it is an undue length of time, because the men who desire to initiate a prosecution must first make sure of the county in which the motor-car is registered, then ascertain the name of the owner of the car or the offender, and finally communicate with the offender. Twenty-one days is the maximum period, and it is not supposed to be the ordinary time which will be required. When the Bill left this House a motorist convicted for reckless driving was liable to imprisonment for three months for the first offence, and to six months for the second, or subsequent, offence. In the Bill as amended, he is not liable to imprisonment at all for the first offence, and for the second or subseis only liable to quent offence he imprisonment for three months. right of appeal has also been considered and extended. A good deal of discussion has raged around the question of whether magistrates in petty sessions were always The as careful and impartial as they might be. | which have been made in the House of In all cases when any serious fine is im- Commons, and to agree to the proposals posed there will now be an appeal. As which are now before the House. In regards all these Amendments, it is the meantime, I beg to move that these perfectly obvious that the Bill is made Amendments be considered. much less drastic as regards the driver of the car. I think I ought, perhaps, to explain some of the other changes also. There is an increase in the penalty in what is known as the "Good Samaritan" clause. If a man offends more than twice against that clause he is now liable to imprisonment. The age limit for the granting of licences has been raised from sixteen to seventeen years, except in the case of a licensed driver of a motor-cycle. A clause has been inserted enabling the Local Government Board to prohibit or restrict the use of motors on certain narrow or dangerous roads. The fee for registration has been increased from 5s. to £1, and the fee for the annual licence from 1s. to 5s. In connection with this, I ought to say that that increase is in place of the idea which was thrown out here, that possibly there should be an increase in the Inland Revenue licence, but, on mature consideration, it has been thought better not to increase the Inland Revenue licence, but to allow the increase of the fees to go to the local authority, in consequence of the extra trouble and difficulty imposed upon them by the administration of this Act. Those, I think, are all the Amendments which I need specially refer to. In sitting down, I ought perhaps to say that the operation of the Bill has been limited to three years. I hope that during that time further experience will lead both parties in this controversy to a better state of feeling. I believe the general public will become more accustomed to seeing these cars upon the roads, and I firmly believe that by means of the identification provisions in this Bill, those who misuse their powers will be punished, and, so to speak, weeded out, and that the class of motorists will not be discredited by the excesses of a minority of their number. If this endeavour to introduce a better state of affairs is successful, a reconsideration of the matter may reasonably be asked for at the close of three years. Having regard to all the circumstances in which we are placed, I sincerely hope your Lordships will be good enough to accept the Amendments Lord Balfour of Burleigh. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Commons Amendments be now considered." *EARL SPENCER: Although I do not propose to trouble your Lordships at any length, it would, perhaps, be better that I should say a few words now, rather than later, in the consideration of this matter. I entirely agree with the remarks which have fallen from the noble Lord in charge of the Bill with regard to the changes introduced in another place. I supported him to the best of my ability in the attitude he adopted with regard to the speed limit, and I entirely share his view on that point. I still hold the view that the imposition of a speed limit is improper, that it will be exceedingly difficult to enforce, and may add considerably to the danger which now exists in connection with travelling by motorcars. I fully admit, however, that the feeling in the country, and in another place, was so very strong on the subject, that unless a speed limit had been introduced there would have been great difficulty in carrying the Bill through. I certainly prefer the Bill in its amended form to no Bill at all; therefore I am quite prepared to support the noble Lord in acquiescing in the changes which have been made. With regard to the other changes to which the noble Lord has referred, I presume that they will not do very great harm. I confess, however, that I am a little surprised that, where there was such a very strong feeling expressed against motor-cars, the Government should have agreed to modify the penalties to which motorists were rendered liable. At the same time, there is this to be said that severe penalties do not always have the greatest effect. All I will say in conclusion is that I hope, with the noble Lord who has just spoken, that that class of motorists who have brought such disgrace and dislike upon motor-cars will now realise what a strong feeling has been aroused, and that they will be generous and just to people other than motorists who are using His Majesty's highways. A great deal depends upon them, because I believe that much of the feeling which has been aroused, has been is also intimately connected with another caused by a number of these reckless loan of £30,000,000 which is to be raised individuals not considering the respon- in the Colonies. I am not going at any sibilities attaching to them when in length into these matters, but I am not charge of motor-cars. I feel sure that at quite clear-though possibly this is a a future day, if this Bill proves ineffec-point rather for another place than here tive, a much stronger measure will be introduced, and the responsibility for that will rest upon those persons who are so reckless in their use of the roads. to. -as to how the security is obtained for the repayment of these loans. I understand that it was stated elsewhere, that the £30,000,000 was to be repaid to this country as part of the expenses of the On Question, Motion put, and agreed war, and was to be a permanent unre LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I believe the usual practice is to move that these Amendments be agreed to. I will make the Motion formally, and if objection is taken to any particular Amendment I will do my best to answer it. munerative debt of the Colonies. I believe that loan was underwritten to the extent of £10,000,000 by a large body of financiers in South Africa, but I do not see in the Bill any provision for carrying out that arrangement, or any security for it being done. No doubt the Colonial Secretary in his visit to South Africa made arrangements with regard to this, On Question, Commons Amendments and I do not for a moment say that the agreed to." RAILWAYS(ELECTRICAL POWER) BILL. House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amend ment; Standing Committee negatived; then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed. SOUTH AFRICAN LOAN AND WAR CONTRIBUTION BILL. On Motion to go into Committee. *EARL SPENCER: I am afraid I ought to have made the remarks I am about to offer to your Lordships on a previous occasion, but I confess that, with the enormous number of Bills which are being rushed through in the last days of the session, I did not notice yesterday that this Bill was on the Paper for Second Reading. I regret the noble Viscount, who is so great an authority on finance, is not in the House, as I had hoped that he, rather than I, would have brought the matter forward. This Bill is, no doubt, a finance Bill, and we in this House are unable to make any alterations in detail, although we have the power, which we hardly ever exercise, of rejecting the Bill. This Bill introduces some very large questions of policy seriously affecting both this country and these colonies. It guarantees a loan of £35,000,000, and it arrangements will not be carried out. At the same time, it is a very important matter. It is possible that that £10,000,000 will be all that we shall receive of the £30,000,000, and it seems to be a strong order that there should be nothing in the Bill to show how that £10,000,000 is to be paid. What are we doing? We are practically conniving at, or approving, of an enormous debt being left on the Transvaal. I believe I am right in saying that this transaction refers only to the Transvaal, and that a separate arrangement has been made with regard to the Orange River Colony. When we come to consider the probable annual income of the Transvaal in relation to this enormous loan, we see at once what a heavy debt we are placing, or approving of being placed, on the colony. Various estimates have been made as to the future revenues of the Transvaal. Taking all the railroads, which are to be purchased out of this loan, the revenues come to something like £7,000,000 a year; not counting the railroads, I believe the revenues amount to £4,000,000 £4,500,000. If those amounts represent the revenues of the country, this is a very heavy debt for them to start with. or |