of game differed in all three. The object of the Amendment was to bring all game into the one definition of this Bill. The Acts of Parliament he had were one of William IV., the Ground Game Act of 1870, and the Land Act of 1881, in which there was also a definition of game. ་་ Amendment moved دو "In page 8, line 8, after the word 'land' to insert the words and the word " game shall for all purposes be construed according to the definition thereof in any existing Act of Parliament."-(The Earl of Donoughmore.) *LORD ASHBOURNE said they appreciated the object the noble Lord had in seeking to make the definition cover as wide an area as possible. He was told, he did not know, that the Act of 1881 had the widest aefinition, and perhaps the noble Lord might accept that definition. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said that the Act of 1881 did not include four items included in the Act of William IV. -namely, deer, moor game, black game, and bustards. *LORD ASHBOURNE said he was told by those more learned in this matter than himself that the widest definition was that in the Act of 1881, but it was obvious that it did not contain some things contained in another Act, and he would consider the matter and deal with it on Report. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said that of course 'deer' was very important. LORD ASHBOURNE: I admit it. Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn. LORD CASTLETOWN said that the Amendment he now proposed was really proposed with the object of bringing in an Amendment which was further down on the Paper, but he saw that the noble Lord, Lord Dunraven, had an Amendment before his, which perhaps he might like to move. THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN said his Amendment was really on the wrong line, and did not come in till afterwards. LORD CASTLETOWN: Then I move my Amendment. THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN said, as the Bill now stood, if an owner was working minerals then he could retain them, but if he was not working them he could not retain them. There were districts in which it was pretty certain, from the geological formation, that minerals existed. It seemed to him to be very hard that a landlord should not be able to reserve his right to a coal seam which he was not then working. Of course, he could refuse to sell, but that would be hard on the tenants, who could not then buy the agricultural part of the estate. He begged to move. Amendment moved "In page 8, line 10, after the word 'estate' to insert the words 'unless the owner of the estate with the consent of the tenants and the Land Commission shall have arranged otherwise."--(The Earl of Dunraven.) LORD ASHBOURNE said he believed the view of those who had closely considered the matter was that the Amendment of the noble Earl was opposed to the principle which had been proceeded on in respect to this clause. What the noble Earl proposed to put in were the qualifying words "unless the owner of the estate with the consent of the tenants and the Land Commission shall have arranged otherwise." He admitted the reasonableness of the words, which, though suggestive, were carefully prepared, but they were against the principle of the Bill, and were outside the scope of the principle on which the Chief Secretary, who took so prominent a part in the Bill, proceeded, and therefore he hoped the noble Earl would not seek to press his Amendment. THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN said he was in hopes the words "Land Commission would make it perfectly clear that the owners would have to prove that the mineral—a vein of coal, for instancewas under the land. He would withdraw his Amendment. gentleman's neighbours were all within the same geological area. Their lands had not yet been opened, but they con tended that the mineral deposits on their lands were of great potential value, and that, therefore, they would not sell to their tenants until they had arranged for the value of these mineral deposits. He did not think any person could suggest a fairer Amendment than one which suggested that the landlords should sell their ground, grass tillage, and so on, to the tenant, with the assistance of the Treasury and the Land Commission, but that they should be allowed to say, "I have under Amendment, by leave of the House, ground a thing of great value which I will withdrawn. Amendment moved "In page 8, line 13, after the word 'on' to insert the words 'or under.'"-(The Duke of Devonshire.) On Question, Amendment agreed to. LORD CASTLETOWN said he now came to the corollary of the Amendment which he had moved a short time previously upon this clause. The object of this Amendment, which he put forward with a certain amount of assurance, and certainly with the hope that the Government would consider it in a favourable light, was to ensure that the owner should be compensated for his mineral rights. It had, apparently, been assumed that in Ireland there were no minerals worth preserving, or no minerals being worked. Now it had been found that there were many landlords in Ireland who had large and valuable mineral resources. One gentle man in County Kilkenny, who had developed a large coalfield, was most sell or retain in my own hands. If I sell it to the Land Commission, I will sell it on such terms as I think fair." The Amendment was a very fair one, and he hoped it would be accepted. He begged to move. Amendment moved "In page 8, line 15, after the word 'Parliament' to insert the words 'provided that the Land Commission may acquire upon such terms as may be agreed upon and may be sanctioned by the Treasury any such rights of mining and taking minerals on any estate Land Purchase Acts."(Lord Castletown.) which is being sold by an owner under the LORD ASHBOURNE said he did not wish to cominent upon the Amendment now, but if it was accepted now there should be other Amendments made on the Report. The position of these mines to of which he was aware himself, was, of which the noble Lord had referred, and course, both interesting and important. LORD CASTLETOWN: There are Ireland. anxious to do all he could with regard to other mines in Antrim and other parts in his property so far as sale was concerned, and was quite willing and prepared to sell to his tenants under certain circumstances. He had asked: "Am I right to sell mineral rights, which are of great value at the present time to me, and of great potential value hereafter to me and my successors, for nothing? I sell to the tenants the land over the mineral deposit, and am told that if I do that I must pass the whole of the minerals over to the Land Commission." These coalfields were of great value, and arrangements were being made to bring two lines of railway down to the estate to bring the coal to the port for shipping, and this Lord Ashbourne. LORD ASHBOURNE said of course now Ireland was a most developing country. They were discovering all sorts of things. The matter had not been lost sight of, because an Amendment which appeared lower down on the Paper, and which would be opposed subsequently, proved that under certain circumstances mines or minerals which were worked after the Bill was passed should pay a royalty of 50 per cent. The Chief Secretary had considered the position, and was prepared to make a concession on the Amendment when moved. LORD CASTLETOWN said the next LORD ASHBOURNE said that there Amendment was only to deal with to deal with was just one thing that he ought to royalties. This Amendment was to deal mention. with the sale of mining rights. LORD ASHBOURNE said if the minerals were being worked at the time of sale the question would not arise. If they were handed over to a syndicate of course a different state of things would arise, but in the Amendment which was to be moved he would be able to make a statement in regard to the matter. Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: The noble and learned Lord said that he was ready to make some concession on the matter and therefore I need not address the House on this Amendment, I will formally move it. Amendment moved "In page 8, line 20, to leave out from the word Crown' to the end of Sub-section 3, and insert the words 'Provided also that where any such right reserved to the Land Commission under this sub-section is at any time hereafter let, leased, sold, or demised by them, the vendor (or the person who would have been entitled thereto if the lands had not been sold) shall be entitled to receive 50 per cent. of any rent, purchase-money, or other net profit received by the Land Commission in respect of same, unless the Land Commission shall have purchased from the person entitled to such percentage his interest therein, and the Land Commission may purchase such interest at any time on such terms as may be sanctioned by the Treasury."(The Earl of Donoughmore.) LORD ASHBOURNE said that the Chief Secretary had considered this matter very carefully in conjunction with the noble Duke and regarded it as a very important subject. The Amendment standing in the name of the Duke of Manchester moved by the noble Lord was to secure a royalty to the persons who would have been entitled to the minerals if the land had not been sold, of 50 per cent. His right hon. friend was ready to fix the percentage at 25 per cent. instead of 50. That was a very large amount, but it had been agreed to by the Duke of Devonshire. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said that he was obliged to the noble Lord, but as he supposed that he would not advance upon that he would not bargain with him. This Amendment would have to go in after line 21, and it was most important that that line should be. preserved; if it were put in at the end of line 20 it would exclude line 21, and that he could not agreed to. LORD CASTLETOWN: That is the line vesting in the Crown? LORD ASHBOURNE: Yes. LORD CASTLETOWN asked if this Amendment governed the case of those owners who had sunk pits on their land and who had already dealt with their mineral properties, whether those properties passed direct to the Land Commission. That was the point that they wanted to get at in the interest both of themselves and the tenants. LORD ASHBOURNE said that he would think over the matter, he had not considered it, but he promised to consider it before the Report stage. LORD CASTLETOWN asked whether he understood his noble friend would have an Amendment on the Paper on the Report, dealing with the subject. LORD ASHBOURNE said that at present he did not think that an Amendment was necessary, but if, on consideration, he thought that one was necessary he would put an Amendment down. LORD CASTLETOWN said that supposing the noble Lord had lands with large and valuable coal fields under them would he like to pass them over to somebody else for nothing? LORD ASHBOURNE: No, I should not! On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to. THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN said that the Amendment that he proposed to move was a mere drafting Amendment. The words first mentioned in the clause would refer only to one right-the right of entering, but the words "any such" would refer to all, he begged to move. Amendment moved "In page 9, line 25, after the word 'Acts' to insert the words 'to tenants.'"-(The Duke of Devonshire.) On Question, Amendment agreed to. LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDON said the object of the next Amendment almost explained itself, the clause in question was introduced into the House of Commons in redemption of a pledge given before the clause was added to the Bill LORD MACNAGHTEN said that by the Chief Secretary, in answer to a he would like to ask the noble and Question put during the passage of the he would like to ask the noble and Bill through the House, to provide that learned Lord Chancellor for Ireland what ancient monuments should not pass it meant, because there was considerable the hands of small occupiers, but should vest in some public body. He was thank ful to see the principle recognised in the clause that this should be done, but the clause would not carry out that object because it only proposed to hand over these monuments to the Board of Works if it was willing to take them. into But the Board of Works was not willing to take them in a great number of cases, because they had no means to maintain them, and in that case the monuments would remain in the hands of small occupiers. Amendment gave an alternative by which they might be vested, if the Board of Works refused to take them, in the County Councils. He begged to move. Amendment moved His apprehension felt as to the meaning of this clause, and he had not been able to find anybody who had been able to explain it to him. There was a general apprehension that it might mean that if the tenants, without the knowledge of the landlord and contrary to the conditions of the tenancy, created interest by way of a sub-tenancy, that when the landlord sold he might have to compensate out of the money received from the sale the sub-tenant for improvements created by him under the sublease. an tell their Lordships that when a Member of their Lordships' House, of the obvious comprehension and learning of his noble and learned friend, felt confused, he must endeavour to do something to assist him out of the state of uncertainty in which he found himself. He had read the clause with every attention, and with every desire to approach it from the standpoint of his noble friend, and he was constrained to admit that he had been unable to get in any way perplexed by it. He took it to mean that supposing a tenant on an estate was in possession of £1 per acre, and supposing that he of a holding of fifty acres, say at the rental made a sub-letting of ten acres at £2 an acre, which would result in a profit rental to him of £10, this section, which was for LORD ASHBOURNE said he need not the purposes of carrying out the sale, enabled the sub-tenant to be recognised as the tenant who was entitled to become the purchaser of the holding of ten acres at £2 an acre as let by the direct tenant, who was entitled to be compensated in order that all the intervening interests could be purchased. When one came to consider who the owners of intervening interests were, one found oneself confronted in the first place with the tenant who made the sub-letting at a profit rental of £10, who became the owner of an intervening interest to the extent of being in receipt of that sum at the time the sale was made. He would have to get compensation, and get it from the same source from which all other owners received that which was the purchase price of the holding. LORD CASTLETOWN: Who gets the bonus ? LORD ASHBOURNE said that the noble Lord had started another question altogether. He had not considered the question, but he supposed the bonus would go to the owner who, for the purpose of this section, would become the direct landlord of the direct tenant, who, for this purpose, became the direct purchaser of the land. Clause 15, as amended, agreed to. Clause 16 agreed to. Clause 17. LORD CASTLETOWN said the Amendment he proposed to move was a drafting Amendment. The words in the clause were vague, and he now ventured to put in these words. The object of the Amendment was to ensure that the person who sold the estate should not be a mortgagee It would be a great hardin possession. ship if a mortgagee should come in and sell an estate at a low price merely for the sake of getting the bonus and going off with it, thereby diminishing the other interests. He begged to move. Amendment moved "In page 10, line 33, after the word 'person,' to insert the words 'other than a mortgagee in possession.'"-(Lord Castletown.) LORD ASHBOURNE said he had got sympathy with the object of the noble Lord, but he could not see how the Amendment met his views. A mortgagee at present had very great powers no doubt. He would, however, look into the matter. Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn. Amendment moved- "In page 11, line 4, after the word person to insert the words 'not under disability.'"-(The Duke of Devonshire.) On Question, Amendment agreed to. man in LORD DUNBOYNE said the object of this Amendment was to provide that the person next entitled should have due notice. It sometimes happened that the owner expectant was not a direct successor, and it might happen that the owner in possession would have very special interest in his successor and that he might think more of his own interest and getting the bonus than the remainder. He trusted there were not many such but they were bound to regard contingencies, and the Amendment he proposed prevented the possibility of the sale of an estate at a price under value, because it would enable the person entitled to come in and show cause, if he thought fit, that an improper or improvident sale was being made. begged to move. Amendment moved- ou He "In Page 11, line 10, after the word 'obtained to insert the words 'Provided that the person next entitled in remainder expectant estate of the vendor at the time of the prothe determination of the posed sale shall have due notice of the sale, and be etitled to appear and object.'"-Lord Dunboyne.) |