solvent estates. I am sure that those the tenant for life in order to settle concerned in the administration of that the question. Court would be surprised at, and would not concur with, the view suggested by the noble Lord. I will, however, consider the matter carefully before the Report stage. THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I cannot undertake to accept it. Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn. Clauses 7 to 10 agreed to. Clause 11. THE DUKE OF ABERCORN said the clause as it now stood would abolish guarantee deposits entirely. In all these cases the Land Commission was bound to sanction advances, but in other cases it would be desirable to leave the Land Commission discretionary power to reserve the guarantee deposits, otherwise they might refuse to sanction as large a price as they would pass had they the Amendment, by leave of the House, power to reserve deposits, and thus the withdrawn. LORD CLONBROCK said he wished to move an Amendment which would enable the vendor to know the amount of the purchase money and the amount of the arrears. At present the two sums were lumped together, and it surely was desirable for the vendor to know the amount of arrears charged for. Amendment moved "In page 5, line 37, after the word 'offer' to insert the words and the amount of purchase money therefor. In line 39, after the word Commission' to insert the words and the amount of purchase money therefor.' In line 40, after the first wordthe' to insert the word 'total.'"-(Lord Clonbrock.) THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Those who have drafted this Bill are of opinion that these particulars would not be of any benefit to the owner, or to anyone else. All particulars that were thought necessary have been drafted in the clause, and it is not considered that there would be any advantage in adding the words suggested. LORD CASTLETOWN said the tenant for life would know exactly what he was selling, and the remainder-man would be able to know what he was to receive as his inheritance. Unless the Amendment was accepted there would be continuous actions between the remainder-man and sales would be seriously affected. The Amendment would not only help sales, but it was in the interests both of the Government and of the Bill, and he trusted that the noble Duke would accept it. Amendment moved- "In page 7, line 16, to leave out the words 'the foregoing provisions' and insert the words 'Sub-section 1 of Section 1.'”—(The Duke of Abercorn.) THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: On former occasions landlords frequently made complaints about guarantee deposits. The provisions of this Bill have enabled guarantee deposits to be dispensed with. It was intended to provide security for the advance, but in this Bill other securities, which are considered sufficient, have been taken, and it is now considered that the guarantee deposit is no longer required in any case. The only object of this Amendment would be to enable a larger price to be obtained for the estate than that which would otherwise be given. The Amendment would probably be strongly resisted in the House of Commons by representatives of the tenants on that ground, and would be by them. regarded as being, to a certain extent, a breach of compromise. I do not think that any suggestion to this effect was made in the other House, and certainly the reasons which have been advanced by the noble Duke in bringing it forward, are not sufficient to induce us to think that the Bill ought to be altered. THE DUKE OF ABERCORN said if the noble Duke said it would cause a breach of the compromise, and would lead to further discussion, he was willing to withdraw it, but he was bound to say that he thought the Amendment was a very simple one, and could have been accepted by the Government without detriment to the well-being of the Bill. THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I do not think if we sent this Amendment back to the other House on the ground that it would enable the landlords to get a better price from the tenants, it would commend itself to the approval of the other House. whole of Ireland. He spoke at some length upon the subject on the Second Reading, but the superior attractions of the dinner hour proved too strong for his noble friends, and he was afraid that he would now have to repeat the remarks he then made. They thought that the condition of sporting rights, as delineated in this clause, was extremely unsatisfactory. The object of the Amendment moved in another place was to continue the position of sporting rights, as it was under the past Purchase Acts, but he hoped to show that it did nothing of the kind. It instituted a very, very unfair possibility to the landlord, for the reason that under always happened that the sporting rights previous Purchase Acts it had nearly had been retained with the landlord, and there was no question whatever on the tenant's part as to the retention. As the clause was worded at present, it said that the exclusive sporting rights of the Amendment, by leave of the House, landlord might be reserved to him or withdrawn. Clause 11 agreed to. Clause 12. LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDON said he had given notice of an Amend ment to carry out the intention of both the Government and the leaders of the Nationalist Party, but he did not intend to press it then, as some of his friends were not certain that it would carry out the desired object. He hoped that at a later stage of the Bill something would be produced to safeguard the interests of those men who had shown themselves loyal and law-abiding citizens. They knew by past experience that although Parliament might mean one thing, unless its opinion was expressed in some printed document the exact opposite might be carried out, and he wanted it made perfectly clear that the interests of these loyal men would be safeguarded. In the meanwhile, he would withdraw the Amendment. might be transferred to the tenant. What did that mean? It meant that when the landlord went to arrange a price with the tenant the latter would naturally, as the clause gave him the power to do, cause the sporting rights to enter into the bargain and say, "If you have them you must give me consideration for them." That was an entirely new principle to insert in the Bill, and he claimed that it was a very unfair one. But there was more than that. This clause was introduced in another place, drafted by the Solicitor-General of England, and he was sorry to say that the wording of the clause only illustrated once more the fact that, although they had one or two notable exceptions in the House, when a learned lawyer descended into the field of sport, he got hopelessly out of his depth. The clause dealt only with the vendors' sporting rights, but there were separate sorts of sporting rights in Ireland, and the other two were absolutely neglected by this Bill. The first sort was the one dealt with in the Bill, i.e., the vendors' exclusive sporting rights; the second was the concurrent rights which were shared by the landlord and the tenant, and the third were the tenants" exclusive sporting rights, which were found in some parts of the country, *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said and which ought to be dealt with under the Amendment he desired to move the Bill. The Amendment which he considered as very important over the begged to submit dealt with all those The Duke of Devonshire. Clause 12 agreed to. was rights, and he asked them to look at it. The first sub-section said : "Where any land is sold under the Land Purchase Acts, all sporting rights shall, after the sale, in default of any agreement to the contrary, and subject to the subsequent provisions of this Act, remain vested in the persons in whom the same were vested in like manner as the same were held immediately prior to the sale of the said land, and for the same interests, but subject to the provisions of the Ground Game Act, 1880. He would strongly press another point. It was to the interests of the whole country that the landlord should keep these sporting rights for various reasons. It was admitted that the Government wanted the landlords to stay in Ireland. If they wanted them to do that they must give them an interest in the country, and so far as he could see the only interest they would have was the interest in these sporting rights. In his own case he was most anxious to keep them. Further, it was necessary to have a spending class in the country, and as the landlords were a spending class the Government ought to try and keep them in the country. He would next urge that these sporting rights, when properly looked after, brought "The tenant shall be at liberty, at the time money into the country. The landlords of the sale of the land, to transfer to the let their houses as hunting boxes; they vendor, by agreement, by such rights as shall be at that date vested in him, upon any such let their fishing and their shooting. But terms as may be agreed upon.' it was not only the landlord who benefited by the foreigner coming into the country Whilst the third sub-section set forth to spend his money; every class of the He claimed that that sub-section absolutely carried on the status quo, which was the object of the Government in this Bill. The second sub-section provided that that “In default of any such agreement between the tenant and the vendor, all sporting right, save those already vested in the vendor, shall go to and be vested in the Land Commission, and the Land Commission shall offer the same for sale or letting in the first place to the vendor of the estate, and in case the vendor shall refuse to purchase same, then the Land Commission may deal with same as they may think fit." It might be objected that by the last words of the third sub-section the sporting rights were taken away from the tenant and given to the landlord, and there was to be no payment whatever, but he would point out that under the Act of 1881 the exclusive sporting rights of the tenant were of very, very little value. Under the present state of the law, if the landlord had not reserved his rights the operation of the Land Acts came in. The tenant served notice on the landlord that he intended to apply to the Court to have a fair rent fixed. By that step the landlord at once received a concurrent right with the tenant in the sporting rights in that holding, and when the fair rent was fixed by the Land Commission that Commission had no option whatever, if the landlord pleased, but to give him the exclusive sporting rights. Therefore he claimed that the tenant's exclusive sporting rights, where they existed, were of very little value, because they might be taken away without compensation at the end of fifteen years. community benefited. The local shop- "The almost universal experience of the He knew where tenants had acquired sporting rights and there was no game left. Among the sporting rights were those of hunting, and he presumed that meant the right of fox hunting. Unless these rights were preserved to the landlord, who would look after the fox covers? On fox hunting depended the horse-breeding industry, which was the one prominent industry remaining in the country. The tenant had no time to look after fox covers, and if they went, fox hunting would go, horse breeding would follow, and the only thing that kept the country above water would be utterly wasted. Then with regard to maintaining the streams, the landlord had watchers to prevent poaching, but if the waters were handed over to the tenant nothing at all would be done. The salmonfishing, if handed over to the tenant, who cared nothing for it, would disappear. Then with regard to the other Subsection, which was "Where a sale has taken place under the Land Purchase Acts of holdings or an estate, and the purchase agreement provides that the | sporting rights shall belong to the vendor, or where the sporting rights vest in the Land Commission under this Act, there shall be vested in the vendor or the Land Commission, and their respective successors and assigns, the rights of sporting upon and over such holdings or estate, together with the right to enter on said lands, to take all necessary steps for the due preservation of game and fish thereon, and to prosecute trespassers in pursuit of game or fish thereon, as fully and effectually as if they were the legal occupier of the land, and for all such purposes they shall be deemed to be such occupier." He was advised that the present law was based entirely on the relationship between landlord and tenant. The Bill was to destroy that right, and without that section they would have no right whatever to prosecute. It was a very important subject, and he sincerely hoped that the Government would be able to deal with his Amendment, which was not moved in any spirit of emnity but merely because they were advised that it was the only satisfactory way of carrying out what they believed would conduce to the good future of Ireland. He begged to move. Amendment moved "In page 8, to leave out Sub-section 1 and insert the following new sub-sections: (1.) Where any land is sold under the Land Purchase Acts, all sporting rights shall, after the sale, in default of any agreement to the contrary, and subject to the subsequent provisions The Earl of Donoughmore. of this Act, remain vested in the persons in whom the same were vested in like manner sale of the said land, and for the same interas the same were held immediately prior to the ests, but subject to the provisions of the Ground Game Act, 1880. (2.) The tenant shall be at liberty, at the time of the sale of the land, to transfer to the vendor, by agreevested in him, upon any such terms as may be ment, any such rights as shall be at that date agreed upon. (3.) In default of any such agreement between the tenant and the vendor, all sporting rights, save those already vested in the vendor, shall go to and be vested in the Land Commission, and the Land Commission shall offer the same for sale or letting in the first place to the vendor of the estate; and in case the vendor shall refuse to purchase same, then the Land Commission may deal with same as they may think fit. (4.) Where a sale has taken place under the Land Purchase Acts of holdings or an estate, and the purchase agreement provides that the sporting rights shall belong to the vendor, or where the sporting rights vest in the Land Commission under this Act, there shall be vested in the vendor or the Land Commission, and their respective successors and assigns, the right [of sporting upon and over such holdings or estate together with the right to enter on said lands to take all necessary steps for the due preser vation of game and fish thereon, and] to prosecute trespassers in pursuit of game or fish thereon, as fully and effectually as if they were the legal occupier of the land, and for all such purposes they shall be deemed to be such occupier.'"- (The Earl of Donoughmore.) THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN said it was extremely desirable that the landlord should retain the sporting rights. By an exodus of the landlords £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 would be withdrawn from Ireland, and that would be almost a catastrophe to the country, which was a poor one. And it would fall most heavily on the most deserving classes, the labourers and small shopkeepers. If for no other reason than that, it was highly desirable that the best possible inducements should be given to the landlords to remain in the country, and the enjoyment of the sporting rights would be the chief inducement for them to remain. It was a very difficult subject to deal with, and he frankly admitted that he did not like the noble Duke's Amendment nor that of the Duke of Manchester's, nor his own, though he liked his own the best of the three. There were some tenants-the now judicial tenants, for instance-who had the exclusive right of game, and he did not see how that exclusive right could be taken from them without some kind of compensation being given, even if it was only a nominal compensation. He did not see in the Bill that the Land Commission had any where the fishing rights were not reserved power to purchase the sporting rights from to the landlord they should be transferred. those tenants who had the exclusive right to a public board which would look after of game. In his opinion there were some them. That board, he proposed, should points to be considered with regard to the be the Board of Agriculture. Those sporting rights in order that an ideal appeared to him to be the four matters it clause might be made to deal with them. was requisite to consider in dealing with First of all there should be no sort of this subject: That the fishing not reserved compulsion or constraint put on the pur- should go to the Board of Agriculture; chasers to give a right in perpetuity to a that the shooting not reserved should go person to walk about their property, and to local authorities; that the landlords. to give the right not only to him, but to should be enabled to reserve their rights. his gamekeepers, servants and so on. by agreement, and should be encouraged Secondly, the sporting rights should be to do so as much as possible; and that there retained wherever practicable, and where should be no kind of constraint put upon they were not retained it did not appear the purchasing tenants to give a right in to him that the Land Commissioners were perpetuity to anybody to have access for the best body to hold them. He did not sporting purposes to their land. He did see what the Land Commissioners were to not pretend to say that his Amendment do with them. met all the cases he had endeavoured to meet, especially in regard to the point of the County Councils and the Board of Agriculture, but the matter was a very complicated and difficult one, and he was rather in hopes that the Government might perhaps be able to advise the House on the matter, and probably draw up some more satisfactory words. A NOBLE LORD: Let them. THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN: If, as the noble Lord said, the Land Commissioners were to let them, then who was to have the money? He thought that if they were not retained they should be transferred to the local authorities. If the County Councils could let them it would be obviously to the advantage of the small, tenants to look after the game and preserve it, because whatever rent it fetched would go in the relief of rates, and that in itself would be a distinct advantage and an agreeable inducement to the tenants to see that the game was preserved and that the property was not poached, and so on. Then there came what to him appeared to be a much more important matter than the shooting rights, and that was the fishing rights, because the enormous industry of Ireland--he did not allude to angling, but the great salmon fisheries in the estuary of the Shannon and in other large rivers of Ireland depended, as their Lordships knew perfectly well, upon the strict preservation of the upper waters of the river, and if the upper waters were in the hands of small proprietors they would have no object in preserving the waters and would not preserve them, nor, did he imagine, would the Land Commission or the County Councils, because the County Councils in possession of the upper waters of the Shannon and its tributaries had no interest in the main industry of the estuary of the Shannon. Therefore, in his opinion, *LORD MASSY said their object in trying to protect the game was to try and induce British sportsmen to come over to Ireland, where they would have something to shoot, and spend their money in the country. To attain that object they thought the best thing would be, where an estate was sold under this Bill, not to. hand over the sporting rights to the tenants, who would have, perhaps, neither the power nor the inclination to preserve the game on their holdings, many of which would be so ridiculously small that they could not preserve the game, but to vest the sporting rights in the Land Commission; to give the vendor the primary right to buy the rights if he wished, but if he did not wish to do so the Land. Commission should dispose of them as they thought fit. It was perfectlymanifest that if these rights were not put into the hands of some responsible party such as the Land Commission or the vendors, that in a few years. there would not be a head of game in the country to preserve, and any idea of the British sportsman going over to Ireland to shoot game and spend his money would be hopeless, and the rateable asset-namely, the money which he |