THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN Robertson that the Estates Commissioners asked, in view of the statement by Lord would be dependent upon the Government of the day, whether or not the Commissioners would be independent judicial Commissioners. words on this exceedingly important given facilities for purchasing "a" holdmatter. The noble and learned Lord ing-that was, as he understood it, a had said that the Bill ought to be able vacant holding; and he would have been to stand all kinds of stress and bad glad to have supported that provision. weather, but he was afraid that if the But in its passage through the other noble and learned Lord's views were House the term "a" holding was altered taken, they would create bad weather to "that" holding, and the only holding and storms of a very serious kind. He the evicted tenant now had a chance of had probably had as large an experi- getting under the provisions of the Bill ence, in the capacity of Lord Lieu- was the holding from which he was tenant of Ireland, in dealing with the evicted. He hoped the House would land question in that country and its support the Amendment. difficulties, as any one of their Lordships, and he knew there was no difficulty so great as that surrounding the question of the evicted tenants. He sympathised with the planters, but to mark them out for preference would be to place them in a very serious position indeed. Is was absolutely necessary to meet the feeling in regard to evicted tenants by some such conciliatory method as the Government had suggested. He attached great importance to the dissipation of the ill-feeling that attached to past evictions. There was evidence of a better state of of feeling in Ireland, and he urged the House not to impede the growth of this better feeling by accepting the Amendment. He thought the noble Marquess the Foreign Minister had put the case very strongly. If they were to have a state of feeling in Ireland on the land question similar to that which existed time after time when he was there, he did not know what provisions would save the country or those implicated. The power of the combinations referred to was enormous, and nothing but the force of the law could restrain them. He hoped that a new state of feeling would now spring up, and, as they saw evidences of it in many quarters, they should not impede it by accepting the Amendment. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said he was sure no Irish landlord in their Lordships' House disagreed with the concluding observations of the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition. They were all most anxious that peace should reign in Ireland in the future. The Bill as introduced in the other House did give protection to planters, but in the course of events an alteration was made in favour of evicted tenants. It was provided in the Bill, as originally introduced, that an evicted tenant might be *LORD ASHBOURNE replied that it was not intended by the Chief Secretary that the Estates Commissioners should be a legal or judicial body, but an executive body in touch with and controlled by the Executive. Although, no doubt, very important duties and functions were entrusted to them, it was intended by Mr. Wyndham in framing the Bill that they should look not to the judiciary but the Executive Government for the guidance and control. THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN questioned the accuracy of the statement made by Lord Donoughmore, that the only holdings which evicted tenants would have an opportunity of securing would be holdings from which they had been evicted. *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said the statement was incorrect. The words in the section did not at all mean that the tenant could only be restored to the particular holding from which he had been evicted. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said He he was glad to have this assurance. been under a wrong impression. was not the only noble Lord who had *THE EARL OF WESTMEATH, referring to the observation of the noble Marquess the Foreign Minister that, in the event of pressure being brought to bear upon the planters, the Estates Commissioners might object to deal with the land, said he thought it would be hard on the Estates Commissioners if they had to hold an inquisition in every case to ascertain whether or not any pressure had been brought to bear on the tenant who wanted to sell. Then the noble Marquess said the Irish Government might protect the planters. He was sure the present Chief Secretary would give them every protection he could, but there were Chief Secretaries and Chief Secretaries. Then the noble Marquess said the House of Lords might come to the planters' protection; but was it seriously contemplated that the House of Lords should occupy itself with every case of oppression in the West of Ireland ? It seemed to him that the protection which the noble Marquess thought was given was absolutely valueless. Then the noble Marquess said the leaders of the Nationalist Party had pledged their word that there would be no pressure. He did not wish to throw any doubt upon their word, but he did throw great doubt upon their ability to control their followers. He hoped, in insisting upon the Amendment, it would not be considered that they were acting unreasonably. If the Government wished to get on better, they should make up their minds to accept the Amendments, which were very reasonable, and not persevere in their present obstructive tactics. THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY) said that if he had not been convinced on examining the Bill that the position of the planters would not be jeopardised he would not have stood up to defend the clause. The noble Marquess who held the office of Foreign Secretary had justly said that this measure was the result of a compromise. The administration of the Bill could not be satisfactory unless it were cordially supported by all classes of the community in Ireland. There was a fear that the planters might be unjustly treated. But if their position was secure in those years when the Unionist Party were struggling with the Nationalist Party, he could not but think that in the present changed condition of affairs it was still more secure. As had been said, the Leader of the Nationalists had given a pledge that he would be no party to any compulsory change in the position of the planters. They were bound to accept. Mr. Redmond's assurance on this point. Only the other day he came across a speech by the Prime Minister, made when the Evicted Tenants Bill was passing through the House of Commons, in which Mr. Balfour said with regard to that Bill— "It is a contribution from this House, and nothing else, to the war expenses of a particular section and of a particular party.” And he went on to say "If that section or party would hold out any hope that we have seen an end of these things, and that we need never look for a repetition of them in the future, I for one would not look too closely, either to the amount of money we about to receive it." are to vote, or to the merits of those who are If that was Mr. Balfour's opinion in the then condition of things, he thought those words would carry far greater He had never believed weight now. that the time would come when he would Nationalists desired the Irish landlords see it placed on record that the to remain in the country, and welcomed them in remaining. That was a change which was undoubtedly for the better, and about which nobody rejoiced more than he. He felt convinced that the doubts which had been entertained would disappear in the future, and that they would see in Ireland good feeling, not only towards landlords, but towards all those who had fought their battles. For these reasons he supported the compromise which had been arrived at. On Question, their Lordships divided. Contents, 61; Not-Contents, 71. CONTENTS. Camperdown, E. Westmeath, E. [Teller.] Hampden, V. Hutchinson, V. (E, Donoughmore.) Templetown, V. Clause 2 agreed to. Botreaux, L. (E. Loudoun.) Burghclere, L. Castletown, L. Cheylesmore, L. Congleton, L. Davey, L. De L'Isle and Dudley, L. Emly, L. *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said this was the first clause that had ever been introduced into a Land Bill that was going to be of some material good to the landlord. The procedure was as follows: A landlord, whose demesne was mortgaged or charged with family charges, was able, when he sold his estate to the tenants, to sell his demesne to the Land Commission, get the money to pay off his charges, and then buy the demesne back from the Land Commission, borrowing the money from them on the same terms as those on which the tenant borrowed to buy his holding. That was, on the surface, a very equitable provision; but the VOL. CXXVII. [FOURTH SERIES.] Ludlow, L. Monteagle of Brandon, L. Ribblesdale, L. Saye and Sele, L. Stanmore, L. Welby, L. Wentworth, L. Windsor, L. Wolverton, L. working of the clause was practically spoilt by the presence of the words "And adjacent to, or in, the neighbourhood of, the estate." The properties in Ireland were very much scattered, and it would necessarily follow that sales would be going on, under the Bill, of estates which consisted of parcels of land scattered all over the country. The result was that if the clause passed as it was now worded, not one in twenty landlords would be able to avail themselves of its provisions. There were hundreds of landlords who would be unable to secure this advantage from the Land Commission, because the demesne was not adjacent to, or in the neighbourhood of, the estate. Again, in the case of the owner of two estates, who had sold one of his estates under previous Purchase Acts, and the other B under this Act, the clause would be of no use to him if that owner had, in connection with the estate he had sold under the previous Purchase Acts, land in his possession which was either mortgaged or charged, and which charges he wished to clear off. He did not see why a landlord in that position should not receive the benefit of this clause. Amendment moved "In page 3, line 23, to leave out the words and adjacent to, or in the neighbourhood of the estate.""(The Earl of Donoughmore.) THE EARL OF BELMORE said the object of his Amendment was to carry Clause 3 a little further in certain cases, and he hoped the noble Duke would not find that the Treasury's objections were so strong to it as they were to the proposal which had just been withdrawn. The clause as he proposed to amend it would provide that where the owner of an estate had entered into agreements under the Land Purchase Acts for the sale to persons other than the Land Commission of the estate, the Land Commission might purchase from him any demesne or other land in his occupation and adjacent to, or in the neighbourhood of, the estate, at a price which, in their opinion, THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The represented the selling value of that land, Irish Government are very much in and in such case might resell the whole sympathy with the object of this and or any portion of that land to him "or to other Amendments which will be moved a person nominated by the Land Comby the noble Earl on this clause, but I mission as his representative;" and that am afraid the arguments by which where any land was resold "to the owner he has supported the Amendment or his representative as aforesaid," an will not commend themselves altogether advance under the Land Purchase Acts to a very important element in the might be made, not exceeding in any case consideration of this question. This one-third of the aggregate amount of clause, as the noble Earl has stated, the purchase money of the holdings and extends a large pecuniary boon to many other parcels of the land comprised in Irish owners, of a character which the estate, or £20,000, whichever was has never been extended to them before, the less. The owner of a demesne and will involve a very considerable might have no son to succeed him, addition to the amount of the advance but he might have daughters who had which the Treasury will have to undertake a charge upon his estate, including his to make to Irish landlords. That is a demesne. The remainder man might proposal which the Treasury have been be induced to consent to with some reluctance, and I am afraid we will find a very strong indisposition on their part to extend it further. The noble Lord has told us that the words he proposes to strike out would apply this clause to many hundreds of cases to which it does not now apply. Although the Irish Government are very much in sympathy with the object of the clause, I am afraid it would be impossible to induce the Treasury to undertake liabilities so much more extensive than those to which they have already reluctantly consented. I shall on a future Amendment by the noble Earl assent to some modification of this proposal, but I am afraid I could not undertake that the Treasury could be induced to agree to an extension of the clause in the direction he proposes. more or less a distant relation. with whom the owner was not on friendly terms, and he might not think it worth his while to repurchase his demesne because it would do his daughters no harm whatever if it went, and he might not care what happened. The remainderman might be desirous of being put in as good a position as possible, but without this Amendment he would not get advantage of the loan on the very easy terms which the clause provided. This power was actually, in the Bill, given to the Land Commission in cases where they had bought the estate from the Land Judge through his Court, and there was no reason why similar power should not be given in cases where the Land Commission had bought direct through a private vendor. Amendment moved "In page 3, line 26, after the word 'him,' to Amendment, by leave of the House, insert the words 'or to a person nominated by withdrawn. the Land Commission as his representative"; The Earl of Donoughmore. and in line 27, after the word 'resold,' to insert the words 'to the owner or his representative as aforesaid.""(The Earl of Belmore.) THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I Amendment moved "In page 3, line 36, leave out Sub-section 3."-(The Duke of Manchester.) He am afraid this is not an Amendment could not help thinking that the noble which it is possible for the Irish Government or the Treasury to accept. There is an Amendment, in a somewhat similar direction, which will shortly be moved by Lord Donoughmore, which, with some alteration, we shall be able to accept. I cannot say that I precisely understand the effect of the Amendment which the noble Earl has just moved, but I am afraid it cannot be accepted. *THE EARL OF BELMORE said that if another Amendment was to be proposed, which would achieve the same thing, he would not press his Amendment. I *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE Lord had read into the sub-section would like to remind him of its effect. more than it actually contained. Clause 3, under which demesnes could be bought and re-sold to the owners, was, by general admission, a provision of extraordinary liberality. That, he was several noble Lords who had spoken. It glad to say, had been conceded by was an arrangement financially advantageous, and, in other ways, most convenient to many owners of land in Ireland, and particularly to those who owned heavily-encumbered estates. The sub-section merely said this, that before the Land Commission re-sold to the owner the demesne, it was to take into account the amount of land in the landlord's occupation which might be available for the enlargement of holdings where THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: do not say the same thing, but, I believe, nearly. Amendment, by leave of the House, an enlargement was considered necessary. withdrawn. THE DUKE OF MANCHESTER said the sub-section which he moved to delete provided that "In entering into agreements for the resale of any land to the vendor of an estate, the Land Commission shall have regard to the amount of land available for the enlargement of holdings where they consider such enlargement necessary.” Unless this sub-section was omitted, power would be given to the Estates Commissioners, when they were reselling a demesne to a landlord, to withdraw any part or parts of that demesne which, in their opinion, would round off the holding of an adjacent tenant. He thought such a provision would go a good way towards stultifying one of the objects of the Bill, which was to keep the landlords in Ireland after the sales had taken place. It might be urged against his Amendment that if the Estates Commissioners intended to use the authority given them under this sub-section, the landlord had the power in his own hands, and could refuse to sell unless the terms were such as to suit himself; but would it not be very likely, in that case, that he would be laid open to a charge of obstruction and of being unwilling to assist in the working of the Act? What that meant was that if the estate contained a number of uneconomic holdings, holdings too small to support a tenant and his family, and if those holdings, by means of an addition of land, could be made sufficient in size to support a tenant, that enlargement could take place by the utilisation of a part of the land which was formerly in the landlord's hands. That was a condition attached to this extremely liberal clause, and he did not think it at all an unreasonable one. He hoped the noble Duke would not press his Amendment. Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn. *THE EARL OF BELMORE said importance was attached to the next Amendment in his name. The sub-section at present provided that pursuance of this section the Judicial Commis "Where any land is resold to the vendor in sioner may, if he thinks it equitable, on the application of any person who, at the date of the sale of the land to the Land Commission, was entitled to any estate in remainder or reversion in that land, order, upon such terms and conditions as he may think reasonable, that the land so resold shall devolve in accord ance with the terms of the settlement which at the date of the sale to the Land Commission affected it." |