which are more eloquent than any argu- Dover the War Office wanted some vendor what value he puts on it, and the award of the arbitrator is always between the two, generally a great deal nearer the price of the vendor than the value put on it by the public valuer, while in addition there is always a heavy bill of costs and a great waste of time in closing the transaction. I believe absolutely that if we had not closed for the sum named by our own valuer plus £9,000, and if we had gone before an arbitrator, the country would have had to pay a much larger sum, certainly if experience is any guide in the matter, very much more. We should also have run up a heavy bill of costs, and the time occupied would have extended over many months. As it is, we are practically getting the land at the value put upon it by our own valuer. We have contracted no bills of costs, or practically none, and we strong one I can only say that my sole object all through has been to get the land as cheaply as I could for the public, and in deciding on the course I had to take I was bound to be guided by experience in this matter, and by the advice of those in the locality who knew what the conditions of the sale of land I have in that part of Scotland were. only one further word to say, and that is as to the future of this naval base. The Board of Admiralty have purposely not attempted as yet to sketch to Parliament what they believe will be the final requirements of the country at that station. All we claim to have done is to have provided in the cheapest and fullest way possible for the expansion in the future which we foresee. A naval base may be one of two things. It may be a naval base pure and simple, where there are depôts of men, ammunition and stores, and where ships can lie and be docked, or you can have a great manufacturing establishment known by the name of a dockyard. The two conditions are not necessarily connected, but neither are they incompatible. I do not say as yet, because I do not know, how far in the direction of a dockyard it will be necessary for the country to go, but that it will be necessary to establish a great naval base there in the first sense is certain. Whether it will be necessary to make it a dockyard of the same type as at Portsmouth I am not prepared as yet to express an opinion. All I can say is that I have been greatly impressed by my +xperience at the Admiralty with the view, in which I think my predecessors will not differ from me, that there are very grave disadvantages as well as advantages in the State being a manufacturer, and that the indefinite enlarge. ment of the employment of labour by the State is attended with serious drawbacks. Wherever it is possible for the private trade of the country to adequately and fully meet the purely manufacturing requirements of the State I am of opinion that it is to the advantage of the State not to increase its already very large manufacturing establishments. But I am not yet prepared to say how far it will be possible at Rosyth to maintain the base only in the first category I have mentioned. All I claim at present for it is that in the expansion of the Fleet it must play a great part, that, strategically, it is important, and last, but not least, I shall rejoice greatly if it brings Scotland into a closer touch with the Navy. At present, all the home of the Navy being in the South, necessarily naval matters and naval life are not in that close touch with the Scottish people that I hope they will be in the future, and therefore I should rejoice greatly if the interest of Scotland in naval matters grows, and more Scotsmen are seen in the naval service of His Majesty. I beg to move. say this, that so far as this new naval base at Rosyth is concerned, my noble friend is not altogether convinced of its wisdom. He is doubtful both as to the desirability of multiplying naval bases, and not altogether satisfied with regard to the particular place that has been chosen from a strategical point of view. I am bound to confess for my own part, being a Scotsman, that the station at Rosyth does commend itself to me from both a sentimental and a practical point of view. I quite agree with the noble Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty that I should very much like to see Scotland brought more closely into touch with the Navy, and I should also be glad that, if good things in the way of employment and works in connection with the naval base are going, Scotland, and especially the South of Scot. land, should come in for a part of them. With regard to the purchase price paid for Rosyth, let me at once dissociate myself from those who have brought forward charges of mala fides and jobbery. I do not think we need talk about them here, for I would not for one moment suggest that anything of the sort were possible, much less probable. But the First Lord of the Admiralty in his statement proved very clearly that both the War Office and the Admiralty were in the habit of paying very excessive prices for the land that they got. I think his arguments went to show that enormous prices were charged to the spending Departments by private individuals when land was required, rather than to show that this particular purchase had been a very economical one. *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: All I said was that I believed we got this land as cheaply as it was possible to do under any process known to the law. LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I regret very much that my noble friend, Earl Spencer, was not able to be present here to-night, and I am sure your Lordships will sympathise with my noble LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I do not friend, because his absence is owing to a know that processes known to the law renewal of that anxiety which has been are apt to be very cheap. One ought to so very present to him during the last have consideration when it comes to a few weeks. I should have liked him to question of purchase of land as to what be here, because this is a subject in which price the private individual would have he has taken the keenest interest, a sub-paid in similar circumstances. We should ject on which he is thoroughly well remember that the estate at Rosyth is informed, and his criticisms and remarks not close to any great town. The cases would have been a value to your Lord of Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh and Broughty ships and the country generally. I may Ferry are all very different so far as The Earl of Selborne. situation is concerned from that of Rosyth, in that they are closer to great centres of population. *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I would remind my noble friend that in those cases neither of them have water front ages. If he ever adorns the position of First Lord of the Admiralty he will find that water frontages are most expensive. LORD TWEEDMOUTH: With regard to the price paid at Rosyth the Government have acquired 1,400 acres of land. *THE EARL OF SELBORNE : No, no! it is 1,600 acres. LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I have it 1,100 acres of land and 300 acres of foreshore, but I accept the noble Lord's figures. At any rate this land is mostly agricultural. I understand that the land was let at the rate of 22s. 2d. an acre before the Navy came into the offing as a purchaser. The price paid altogether was £122,500, and that works out at about £84 an acre. the benefit of it, but that is not a fair question to consider when arriving at the price to be paid to the vendor. If the Admiralty did not go there to make a naval station, there would have been no value for feuing at all, because the value of feuing would arise from the use the land was going to be put to by the Admiralty. The vendor has no right to be paid for that now. *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Will the noble Lord say that the land would never have had a feuing value? LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Certainly not. *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: That is not the opinion of everybody. LORD TWEEDMOUTH: It certainly has no feuing value at the present time. What I want to insist on is whether, or not, the Admiralty and the War Office have been forced to pay high prices for land in the past, that even though that be the case, and that in comparison with those transactions this one is not so extravagant, I maintain that it is an *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: No; it extravagant sum to have paid, and one averaged £76 an acre. LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I will not acre. quarrel about that. The noble Lord's subordinate, the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, in the other House stated that this land had a genuine value of £40 an £40 an acre is not a bad price for land that is rented at 22s. 2d. per acre. It was further stated that it was the habit in Scotland to pay 50 per cent. more for compulsory purchase. That 50 per cent. for compulsory purchase seems a large sum, but if you add 50 per cent. for compulsory purchase to £40 per acre, which is the genuine value, you arrive at the price of £60 an acre. I think that, for land fetching 22s. 2d. per acre, £60 per acre was a very fine price, even if it had been bought compulsorily. The difference between £60 and £76 is £16, and even on the basis of 50 per cent. for compulsory purchase there is £16 an acre above what might be considered to be a very full price for this land. Besides all this land is going to be valuable, because we are going to feu it. I hope there will be feuing on the land, and that the Admiralty will get which I cannot congratulate the Admiralty on having been obliged to pay. I make no charge of any sort against the Admiralty or anybody else in the matter, all I say is that the figures show clearly to my mind that a very much larger sum was paid than would have been paid by any private individual. *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: May I ask the noble Lord if in all the circumstances of the case and our experience of the past he would have gone for compulsory arbitration. LORD BELPER: I regret that I have The local authorities are also given to ask your Lordships to read this Bill powers of absolutely prohibiting ema second time at such a late period of the ployment or of permitting employment evening, but I think that I need not subject to certain conditions. trouble you with many remarks, because In addition to this clause there is a I believe the principle of the Bill is special clause which deals with street tradapproved widely and by Members sitting ing. Trading in the street was one of the on both sides of the House. That matters to which the Committee turned principle is to give some powers of special attention. They found in a large control and regulation over the hours of number of cases there were children, labour of children-wage-earning children who, in addition to going to school, who also have to attend school, and were occupied an excessive number of those whose case is not met under the hours in different sorts of trading in the Factories Act or the Mines Act or Acts of streets. It is obvious that for certain that sort. A good deal of attention has children, especially for girls, that sort of been called to this matter, and two employment is of rather an injurious years ago a Committee was appointed by character, both to their morals, and, in Mr. Ritchie, who was then the Secretary some cases, to their health. In other of State for the Home Department, to cases they found there were a large inquire into the whole question. They number of children who, owing to the made a very careful and searching conditions under which they worked, inquiry and took a large amount of could do so without injury to health; evidence. I would state shortly that they seemed to be happy and contented, their Report showed that a very large and in no way was their education number of children indeed were em- affected. With regard to this particular ployed in different trades and that many street trading your Lordships will see that of them were employed for an excessive there are some rather stringent regulanumber of hours, which had a serious tions which have been introduced into the effect on them, being both injurious Bill, although there were some other to their health and an interference more stringent regulations still which with their education. At the same were altered during their progress time I should state that that Com- through the other House. No child mittee came to the conclusion that the employment and conditions of employment were so very various and that the circumstances, in places where these children were employed, differed so largely, that they could not recommend that there should be any general statutory powers to prohibit such employment. Nor for the same reason could they see their way to even recommending any definite number of hours which should be imposed as the proper number of hours that such children should work. In these circumstances, the provisions of the Bill, which are founded very much on the recommendations of the Committee's Report, are that powers should be given to the different local authorities in the county for regulating the conditions under which children should be employed. These powers are shown in the first clause of the Bill; they define the age below which employment is illegal, the hours in which they should be employed and the number of daily or weekly hours. under the age of eleven years is allowed to be employed in street trading at all. In addition to that it is pointed out that the local authority may make by-laws, having special regard to the desirability of preventing the employment of girls under sixteen in streets or public places. I do not think at this hour I need allude more particularly to other parts of the Bill. I should, perhaps, mention that the local authorities who are defined to councils of boroughs of over 10,000 carry out the Bill are the County Councils, population, and urban councils of over 20,000 population. I wish to refer particularly to that point because there has been some opposition in the other House with regard to the authorities. It has been suggested that urban councils and rural district councils would be more fitting authorities to carry out the principles of the Bill than the County Councils and borough councils. I do not think you will agree with that view, which was rejected by a considerable majority in the other House. I will not trouble you with many grounds, reference to the statement made by him but I may say this, that the County in this House in answer to my Question Councils have a full opportunity of know- on the 5th May, 1903† :-(1) Whether ing the special conditions in the different the Committee therein referred to has parts of their county, and even in the made its report. (2) Whether there is small burghs and urban districts. What any truth in the rumour now prevalent to is of much more importance is that they the effect that the Committee in question are now the educational authority, and has not gone into the grievances of the have to make by-laws with regard to senior (pensioned) officers of the Reserve, education and employment of children in but confined itself to amending the regulaagricultural and other pursuits under the tions with a view to preventing grievances Education Act. It would make great in the future. My Lords, I must apologise confusions if another authority were given for rising to ask this Question at this time the power of making by-laws in a matter of the evening, but I venture to think quite akin to that. I hope I may be that the matter is one of importance. excused from mentioning other points until My Lords, the Question related to a matter the Bill goes into Committee on Monday. which I brought to the notice of His I think your Lordships will see that the Majesty's Government in your Lordship's discretion which is given to local author- House on the 5th May last. As I then ities will ensure that, before passing any pointed out to your Lordships, there has regulations prohibiting this employment been a regrettable disparity in the of labour in their districts, they will be financial treatment of the two classes of influenced by the knowledge of the cir- Reserve officers who were called up for cumstances of each case. Probably, service during the late war; those who therefore, in making these regulations had retired with a pension having their they will be carrying out the sentiments pension suspended while mobilised, whereof the people amongst whom these as those who had retired with a gratuity children live, and they will be much more continued to enjoy that gratuity, and at likely to make their regulations acceptable the same time received the full pay of and get them carried out than if general their rank during mobilisation without prohibitions were made applicable. I beg any reduction whatever. It was stated on the occasion in question by the noble On Question, Bill read 2 (according War that Earl the Under Secretary of State for to order), and committed to a Com-equalities had existed, and did at the grievances and inmittee of the Whole House on Monday time continue to exist, amongst the Reserve officers, and that the reason why the gratuity Reserve officers continued to receive their Army pay in full was because the noble Marquess who was Secretary of State for War at the time the to move. next. IRELAND DEVELOPMENT GRANT BILL. [SECOND READING.] some Order of the Day for the Second Reserve officers were called up for service Reading read. considered, and very rightly so, that any such deduction would not be "altogether fair." But, my Lords, on the contrary, pensions continued to be mercilessly suspended. The noble Earl further informed your Lordships at that time, that the present Secretary of State for War had recently appointed a Committee which was enquiring into the "whole subject" of the Reserve officers, as he, the Secretary for State for War, thought that there were special cases where "some redress" might be necessary. After these remarks by the Under Secretary of State for War, I + See (4) Debates, cxxii., 279. |